In this podcast “You don't know Vietnam”, host Ian Payton of We Create Content, helps demystify Vietnam for global audiences by talking to the creatives, trendsetters and business owners who are taking on the market. HackerNoon COO Linh Dao Smooke, who was born & raised in Hanoi Vietnam, was invited to the podcast to discuss her unique upbringing and how it influenced her thinking about marketing and business in Vietnam, including: 🇺🇸 How Vietnam seems to be perceived by people in America 📣 What it's like to be raised in the heart of Hanoi's Old Quarter 👩🎓 Vietnam's education system (and if it adequately prepares young people 😮 What shocks Linh most when she returns to Vietnam now 😭 Why global brands can mess up their local marketing efforts CLICK BELOW TO WATCH THE FULL VIDEO https://youtu.be/b4JMZg94DqI?feature=shared&embedable=true "In a communal culture, that's how people connect... via stories”, says Linh Dao Smooke. There's something about the close-knit nature of Vietnamese communities that really lends itself to a bit of gossip. In a nutshell, here’s what it means for global marketing directors looking at Vietnam as their next growth market...🇻🇳 Don't underestimate word of mouth in Vietnam - it's still HUGE🇻🇳 It doesn't matter how good your product is if nobody local can vouch for it🇻🇳 Spend time turning customers into advocates - it will go a long way🇻🇳 People want to see it popular among peers - you must be doing the most on social (and have the vanity likes to prove it) Check out the podcast on Spotify here, Apple Podcast here, and Youtube here. Full transcript below. PODCAST TRANSCRIPT 00:00:26 to 00:01:05 Ian (Host) | Welcome to you don't know Vietnam, the show that demystifies Vietnam for global audiences by talking to the creatives, trendsetters and business owners who are taking on the market. Forget what you thought you knew about Vietnam. It's no longer that as you're about to find out. I'm Ian Paynton, co-founder of Wecreate Content, a content marketing agency that builds audiences for global brands of Vietnam. On today's episode of You don't know Vietnam, I'm talking to Linh Dao Smooke in Colorado, who is the COO of Hacknoon, a website for people in the tech industry to read, write and get published. 00:01:06 to 00:01:38 Ian (Host) | Amazingly, it has more than 45,000 contributing writers for millions of readers each month. But today, me and Linh talk about pretty much everything except HackerNoon, from how she thinks Vietnam is perceived by people in America to what it was like being raised in the heart of Hanoi's old quarter and what shocks her most when she returns to Vietnam today. We also talk about the importance of brands earning trust with word of mouth and social media in Vietnam and why stubborn global brand directors often miss the mark with their local marketing efforts. 00:01:44 to 00:02:07 Linh Dao (Guest) | Hey, Ian. Hello. Thanks for joining me on the you don't know Vietnam podcast. Of course, I don't know if other guests have ever told you this, but the intro music to your podcast is called Cải Lương. And I grew up five minutes within a Cải Lương theatre because that's where my dad and my grandpa and all my uncles worked. 00:02:07 to 00:02:21 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's the music to my heart when I was little. Ian (Host) | So tell me what Cải Lương is then. Just for those that don't know. Linh Dao (Guest) | Cải Lương is reformed theatre, I believe. I think it has roots thousands and thousands of years ago. 00:02:21 to 00:02:50 Linh Dao (Guest) | It's the national music of Vietnam. I mean, there's three national music in Vietnam there’re Tuồng, Chèo, Cải Lương. They're like endangered species. But like, for music, people are not as taken up to Cải Lương anymore these days. So people in the government are trying to preserve it as much as possible by funding these theatres, one of which is where my dad has been working at, the Golden Bell theatre in the heart of the old quarter for almost 40 years now. 00:02:50 to 00:02:59 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's how long he's been working there. Ian (Host) | That's the one where they have face pain, right? Linh Dao (Guest) | No, that's Tuồng. Ian (Host) | Oh, okay. 00:02:59 to 00:03:29 Linh Dao (Guest) | So Tuồng is very dramatic and there's a lot of dramatic movements and masks and stuff. Cải Lương is sad. Like, you just heard of a Cải Lương music, and it just makes you want to cry forever. Because Vietnam is an old country with quite a sad history for thousands of years. The sad history comes from the fact that Vietnam was invaded so many times by different countries, different foreign powers. 00:03:29 to 00:03:59 Linh Dao (Guest) | When the French finally left and the Americans came, the Americans on this side thought that, oh, we're liberating the country from the red wave and the communists and whatever, right? To Vietnamese people. It's literally just another one of those invaders that have been eyeing Vietnam, this beautiful country by the ocean. When I talked to my American friends and my American family about that, they were shocked. They never thought that's how Vietnamese people viewed American interests at the time. 00:03:59 to 00:04:16 Linh Dao (Guest) | Like, America thinks of the Vietnam war, which in Vietnam, we call the American war, as very righteous, right? The Americans thought “Oh, that's the right thing to do. We were just high on winning, fascism or whatever. And now it's our turn to liberate Vietnam”. 00:04:16 to 00:04:39 Linh Dao (Guest) | But no, Vietnamese people didn't think that way and still don't think that way. I think that's the one thing that would always be a disagreement on, is, like, what's the point of that war in the mind of many people? Ian (Host) | I can't believe that the music evokes so much memory and so much emotion and so much conversation. I'm glad that it does. Not that it makes one feel sad, but that it evokes something. 00:05:12 to 00:05:49 Linh Dao (Guest) | Do you know what they do now with traditional Vietnamese music? And by “they” I mean the people who care to preserve the music - like my dad, basically he combines it with Jazz music. Or there are other people that combine them with Rap and other genres of modern music. To make them more palatable to the younger audience because young people do want to appreciate traditional music - it’s just that it was associated for a long time with sadness, and frankly, the government just forced it down our throat a little bit because it's such a huge part of the country. So the young people of my generation didn't feel as much appreciation towards it, but I feel like Gen Z and the TikTok generation, they turn all the way back around and they actually find new appreciation for Cải Lương and the likes. Ian (Host) | The other thing I was thinking when you were talking about the American war versus the Vietnam War and how Vietnam's moved on, which it really has, hasn't it, by the way? 00:05:49 to 00:06:05 Linh Dao (Guest) | I think so. Not completely with the older generation. Like, I remember when Bill Clinton visited Vietnam. That was like the first modern president who visited Vietnam. He made the front page of some of the important newspapers and I remember some old people. 00:06:05 to 00:06:52 Linh Dao (Guest) | At the time I think it was the two thousands so, old that would have meant people born in the like thirties or the forties, did have some problem with it. But the young people, which is, wow, Vietnam has finally stopped being shunned from the global economy and an American president actually made an effort to visit Vietnam. It's a huge milestone, and obviously you fast forward to today. And Vietnam loves being integrated into every single facet of the global economy and pretty much wants to consume and produce and be part of any and all products. Ian (Host) | It still feels like everyone wants a piece of Vietnam as well. Vietnam's welcoming all sorts of presidents and prime ministers, friends with everyone. At the moment, I think it's playing it really well. 00:06:52 to 00:07:21 Linh Dao (Guest) | Recently, Tim Cook just visited Vietnam and that made headlines. Yeah, I think the country really just wants to be past that stereotype of the country as being war-torn. Like, it's been such a long time, but I think some parts of the world still think of Vietnam like that. And I think maybe podcasts like yours would help reshape and refresh people's impression of Vietnam. 00:07:22 to 00:07:58 Ian (Host) | How do you find people's perception about Vietnam today in America, would you say? Linh Dao (Guest) | I think it depends on where in America and what kind of exposure these people have to Vietnamese people. If you only have met Vietnamese people who migrated here a long time ago, they would think of Vietnam as that stereotypical war torn, broken slightly backwards. And they don't really have a lot of modern, updated imageries of Vietnam to talk about. So they would talk about what they knew the best, which was frozen back in time truly, it would be images of when they just left, lots of sadness and tragedy. 00:07:58 to 00:08:30 Linh Dao (Guest) | I was basically raised in peace. I have never known war, I was born in 1990, and even my parents who were born in 1968 knew a little bit of war, but even not that much. So if I asked them, they couldn't have told me too much of their early memories, because once they, like, gained memories, the country was at peace. Maybe the country was poor and was shunned from the global economy, but it wasn't war torn. 00:08:30 to 00:09:13 Linh Dao (Guest) | So when I eventually went to America and I methadore people who also went to America the education way, I found that it's almost our duty to just tell American friends that, hey, you should check out Vietnam today and see what you think. I remember the first time my American husband, boyfriend at the time, went to Vietnam. He was surprised that every single coffee shop that we went to was playing American music. And all the theatres, all the cinemas were updated with the latest version of the Spiderman verse or whatever Marvel and DC were up to those days, like, one day in America and the European markets and then the very next day in Vietnam. 00:09:13 to 00:09:37 Linh Dao (Guest) | Yeah. The adoption and just the enthusiasm and interest people have in the american culture would surprise a lot of Americans when they first come here. If you ever went to Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh City, you'll be in for a big shock if, like, your image in Vietnam is like rice, putty and buffaloes. I did not see a buffalo in my life until I was very old. I think way past 20. 00:09:37 to 00:10:03 Linh Dao (Guest) | I was learning how to drive at the time. So, like, I went down the road very far away from Hanoi and then I saw a real life buffalo stopping us in the middle of the road. That's my first encounter with one when I was 21. Ian (Host) | So it's interesting as well that you've only known peace and probably your parents pretty much only new peace as well. I think a lot of people overseas forget that 50% of the population in Vietnam is actually under 30. It's quite a young population. 00:10:03 to 00:10:24 Linh Dao (Guest) | Such a young country, if you think about it. I am over 30. I'm one of the old folk and I'm 33, so, yeah, that's mind blowing. So if I don't know anything about war, even my parents, that basically most of the country has to move on because that's all we know. 00:10:24 to 00:10:59 Ian (Host) | It does surprise me, actually, how hospitable the Vietnamese are. Considering how you talk about the countless foreign entities that have tried to actually conquer Vietnam. Linh Dao (Guest) | Yeah, I think vietnamese people are just very warm by nature, and that's, like, a gross generalisation, obviously. Like, within any country and culture and any people, there are different tiers, different variations, but I would just say the culture places strong emphasis on warmth and welcoming hospitality. And I think it started from, like, village culture. 00:10:59 to 00:11:14 Linh Dao (Guest) | “It takes a village to raise a child”. So, like, people would go to the rice party to work together. So what do the children do at home? They have to play together. They have to rely on the kindness of, basically, the rest of the community. 00:11:15 to 00:11:52 Linh Dao (Guest) | When I was having my child, I was in for a big shock when my experience with being raised in Vietnam versus my experience raising a child here taught me that it takes a village to raise a child everywhere. Here, I have to ask, and my in-laws are amazing. If I ask, they would absolutely do everything in their power to help me. But the thing is, I couldn't get past having to ask. In Vietnam, we would just automatically assume that the village would obviously take part in raising the child right? 00:11:52 to 00:12:15 Linh Dao (Guest) | And not just like your closest family. It's like your friends and your uncles and your cousins and whoever that are around. At least that was my experience growing up. I would just, like, roam around from house to house, and the neighbours would be my mom for the day because my parents were not at home. Even though I was in the middle of the old quarter, I was like a city girl through and through. 00:12:15 to 00:12:39 Linh Dao (Guest) | It was still very much a communal experience, rather than just a singular, like, one, two parents household. No. The rest of the community cares about you as well. You can even see that in the Vietnamese language and the pronouns and the way people address each other. Ian, I assume that you are older than 33. So I would address you as my brother - And Ian, if you were Vietnamese and somebody who looks like my mom's age, I would call them aunt go or back. 00:12:39 to 00:13:05 Linh Dao (Guest) | Because the assumption is everybody is your family. That's embedded in the Vietnamese language, that you should treat everybody like they're related to you. Ian (Guest) | I can see the benefits of having such a communal upbringing. Would you say there were any challenges with that as well? 00:13:05 to 00:13:41 Linh Dao (Guest) | So just, like, generally lack of personal space, like, lack of appreciation for privacy and personal space in general, it's nice for people not to all of the time get into your business and tell you how to do things. Because when you're, like, at each other's throat all the time, like, there's a lot of judgement and there's a lot of harsh words as well that could come your way. People are very complimentary in general. People don't want to be mean to your face usually. But people also are very frank in the culture of Vietnam. 00:13:41 to 00:14:04 Linh Dao (Guest) | So instead of just asking politely and implying that they want to know something, they just ask directly. For example, how much do you make? How much do you pay for the car? Vietnamese people don't shy away from that kind of conversation. So I would say just the cons is that I never knew that I needed personal space and privacy until I got out of Vietnam. 00:14:04 to 00:14:38 Linh Dao (Guest) | And then also, I appreciated not being judged so frankly and harshly to my face, like, being commented on, like, my weight or my appearance all the time, for example. So, yeah, there's pros and cons to both. Ian (Host) | Was there, like, societal pressure with everyone kind of being in everyone's business and everyone knowing each other's news? Linh Dao (Guest) | Yeah, there's a lot of comparison. For example, if their kids go to the same school, everybody knows how their kids rank within the education system, like what grades they have. 00:14:38 to 00:15:13 Linh Dao (Guest) | One time I was in 9th grade and I was always a good student in the Vietnamese system, but I was also dating. And apparently that's like a taboo thing back in the day. It’s scandalous, apparently, for a 15 year old to have feelings. So then one of my mom's friends whose daughter was in the same class with me and who was ranking around the same top group, pulled my mom aside and was like, “Hey, do you know that ling is dating?” And in a very judgy voice. 00:15:13 to 00:15:36 Linh Dao (Guest) | And it got to my mom, she was projecting this like a perfect image on me: “Yeah, I have this daughter who does really well in school and like, how dare you come around tell me that she was not all perfect”. And I want to say to my mom, like, if I were my mom at that time, I would be like, “good for her”. But no, my mom didn't do that. She got pretty upset with me. 00:15:36 to 00:15:56 Linh Dao (Guest) | So, yeah, absolutely. There's so much comparison and judgement and pressure because everybody talks. Ian (Host) | The Vietnamese quite like a bit of gossip, don't they? Am I fair to say that I used to feel like if you needed to know what was going on in the neighbourhood, go and speak to the local, like, tea seller. The lady who's selling tea. 00:15:57 to 00:16:17 Ian (Host) | Yeah, I remember I sat down with this grandmother who was selling tea on the corner when I used to live in the old corner as well. Linh Dao (Guest) | Literally selling tea, so on the nose. Ian (Host) | And back then I had a girlfriend that was a bit older than me and she had two kids already. Yeah. I told this grandmother that my girlfriend was a bit older with two kids. 00:16:17 to 00:16:44 Ian (Host) | And literally every woman that walked past, she would shout out to her and say: “This guy here has got an older Vietnamese girlfriend, two kids already!” And would say it to every woman that went past. And I said to her: “Why didn't you just shout it on the loudspeaker?” Linh Dao (Guest) | I mean, a lot of times it builds trust and connection. Just so people think that because you were comfortable enough to share the story with you, now it's out of your hands. That's her story to tell now. That's her currency now. 00:16:44 to 00:17:02 Linh Dao (Guest) | If you think about it, it makes sense, right? Like in a communal culture, like, that's how people connect via stories. At the core of it, gossip, sad stories. Now, if they exaggerate the stories and if they tell lies, that's something else. 00:17:02 to 00:17:45 Linh Dao (Guest) | I think it starts from a good goal of just connections. And that's the currency of the communal culture, is connections and stories. Building community in Vietnam is so much more about personal connections, not like gossip, but like word of mouth and people's personal trust in your product and your company in America, it's not as intense. You know, you don't have to build a Facebook group, for example. You don't have to gather thousands of likes on a community chat. You just have to have a good product. Maybe the market is more mature so people rely less on word of mouth. But in Vietnam, uh uh. Gotta be all word of mouth. 00:17:45 to 00:18:00 Ian (Host) | And like these vanity metrics as well, you know? Linh Dao (Guest) | Absolutely. Social media is like community scoreboards. It's a competitive sport, and people do take that very seriously. Ian (Host) | Trust is something that comes up quite a lot on this podcast. In a country where information is relatively hard to verify or access or might be out of date, I think it's really important too. But also the building trust thing can't be rushed, I don't think, in Vietnam. 00:18:01 to 00:18:27 Linh Dao (Guest) | Yeah, I can tell you that people's not gonna buy a product or a service or a concept unless somebody close to them has already verified that. And I have first hand experience with that. 00:18:27 to 00:18:53 Linh Dao (Guest) | So, before HackerNoon was working for this brand new university, I was one of its 1st 50 employees. So it was back in 2014 when I started working for Minerva University. Basically, my job was to convince skeptical Asian parents that this is the next Harvard. Okay. So the first thing I did was, I understand the challenge of it being a trust issue, right? 00:18:53 to 00:19:41 Linh Dao (Guest) | Like this brand new university, there was no one there to verify to these parents that this university works and exists. So I had to build a network of, however small, the people who actually have gone to the university before. At that point, it was one person, like my best friend, now - Thi. She was the only person from Vietnam who had been to Minerva for one year. So together we decided to do a little campaign that doesn't talk specifically about the university, but talks about the idea of Globe Charter and of global education, of like, how many time zones have you been and how wonderful it is to be like, a global citizen of the world. That campaign got overnight success. 00:19:41 to 00:20:10 Linh Dao (Guest) | Within a few days, we got more applications and more interest in the university than we have ever had in our whole history of Minerva being in Vietnam. And you know what happened? It got shut off at the headquarter level. Of Minerva in San Francisco because they think that we are off brand. And I was just thinking in my head: “Dude, like, I was hired to be the Southeast Asian regional manager”. 00:20:10 to 00:20:36 Linh Dao (Guest) | Like, I know how to get to the heart of these Vietnamese parents and students. They need something to grasp onto. Like your whole, like, Minerva spioge of whatever innovation, it's not gonna get Vietnamese parents, they don't understand it, they don't buy it. Ian (Host) | I think you've touched on something really important. What works in other markets, especially western markets and even other Asian markets, isn't necessarily gonna work in Vietnam. 00:20:36 to 00:21:09 Ian (Host) | And I think it's about giving whoever's tasked to market to the Vietnamese the space they need working perhaps within some guardrails, flexibility to make it work in Vietnam to connect with the Vietnamese. The way we get around that is by doing this body of work upfront before we start working with the brand. That's based on insights of Vietnamese people. This is the ballpark in which we're playing with regards to positioning and messaging still on brand. We get that all agreed first and then we experiment within that already agreed guardrail. 00:21:09 to 00:21:45 Ian (Host) | And I feel like, let's brand directors from overseas go: “Okay. They're still respecting the brand, but they're taking these insights from real people in Vietnam and tapping into that to create something that's going to resonate locally”. Linh Dao (Guest) | If you don't have flexibility to get to the level to meet people where they are at, then your brand would just sit on this ivory tower forever. Like, it's not going to reach the people that you need to reach. It's a reason why all these big global companies have to go to Vietnam and have to develop localization techniques and expertise. It's not that simple. 00:21:45 to 00:21:57 Ian (Host) | It's really not that simple. In just Google translating it from afar and going, this is the regional message, this is the global message. This is what needs to get translated into Vietnamese…. 00:22:02 to 00:22:32 Ian (Host) | So you grew up in the old quarter, around your family, around neighbours, around grandmothers selling tea, gossiping about you, dating, and then you go to India on a scholarship with the United World college. Linh Dao (Guest) | My world all of a sudden completely got turned upside down. And it was so surreal. Mainly because for the longest time, for 1617 years, I was in this bubble, speaking mostly Vietnamese. I was a good student, but in a very rigid way. 00:22:32 to 00:22:59 Linh Dao (Guest) | Like, I can just be a good student if I know my materials by heart. I don't have to be creative in any way whatsoever. I don't have to really share my personal thoughts or feelings about anything. Learning and knowing was just all about what the teachers say - Do what I say, not what I do. So the first time in India where that shocked me was there was an assignment, I think it was “Things fall apart” by Chinua Achebe. 00:22:59 to 00:23:27 Linh Dao (Guest) | It's like a very famous text and it has multiple themes to it. That was the first time I had to analyse an English text, basically doing what Vietnamese people call the subject of literature. But in English, back in Vietnam, I just learned literature and English as two separate subjects. Right? And I would have to merge the two, let alone using my own thoughts and my own feelings about the text to analyse it. 00:23:27 to 00:23:53 Linh Dao (Guest) | That was extremely hard. So I took so much notes during the class and I even asked my roommate, who was Indian, for her notes, which, by the way, in Vietnam, that would have been complimented. Like, everybody would applaud you for going above and beyond, just like gathering all these notes. And when I borrowed Namu's notes, that's my roommate's name, and combined them with my notes from class. And then I wrote the essay. 00:23:54 to 00:24:16 Linh Dao (Guest) | A week later, I got back the essay and my teacher at the time did a huge. “You plagiarised”, like, big red letters all over my essay and was just like: “This is bad”. Oh, my goodness. That experience brought down my self esteem like no others. Number one, I have no idea what plagiarism means. 00:24:16 to 00:24:45 Linh Dao (Guest) | Vietnamese education at the time has never taught me that we literally just paraphrase people's text all the time. That's how we were taught to analyse literature is, like, going from Sách Văn Mẫu. Văn Mẫu is literally translated to sample text. So you, like, go from văn mẫu to, like, the teacher's notes to maybe some of your notes, some other people's notes. You combine it into this hot pot of essays. Apparently you're not supposed to look at any notes at all. 00:24:45 to 00:25:26 Linh Dao (Guest) | You know, you're just supposed to, like, discuss in the class and have your own feelings about. These are some big topics. For a 17 year old Vietnamese girl who has never, ever studied about African nationalism, that experience, like, scared me a lot. So it's just a sneak peek into the many differences between the two education systems. Vietnamese, at the time, when I was educated, wanted to produce people who listened to others, who listened to instructions, who would be great corporate workers, government workers, factory workers, people who don't need to, like, trendset or anything. 00:25:26 to 00:26:05 Linh Dao (Guest) | The Indian education I was receiving was the United World college education. I would consider that a global western education. And that through line into my Brown education is very much trying to produce, like, the liberal arts type, able to mix and match ideas, comprehend things in different ways, and hopefully being business owners and trendsetters and set up the next, I don't know, Tesla or Apple. So it's like throwing me from, like, this tiny little pond into the big ocean, almost drowned. Like, it was a very scary experience for a 17 year old to go through. 00:26:05 to 00:26:40 Ian (Host) | I wonder how much the Vietnamese education system has changed since then. And if it hasn't, do you think it's failing young Vietnamese people in terms of being prepared for the world? Linh Dao (Guest) | I think it has got to change since even between me and my brother, who are eight years apart, I think he was allowed the freedom that I wasn't. He was allowed the ability to be creative with the text. I remember back in his 11th grade, he got an assignment to, like, make a play out of Truyện Kiều. 00:26:40 to 00:26:58 Linh Dao (Guest) | Truyện Kiều is, like, a very important story in the vietnamese culture. It's about this, the story of the girl who sold herself to save her father. He was able to use the text in a more expansive manner. Like, he was doing a play. He was doing voices. He made some jokes about the play as well. So I remember that. 00:26:58 to 00:27:37 Linh Dao (Guest) | So, yeah, to answer your question, it has got to change over time now, because I've seen that within the people we hire at HackerNoon as well, with the young new Vietnamese people that I started to hire from my company. And I see that, yeah, they have the work ethics, they have the things that are so hardcore and ingrained into my Vietnamese education as I knew it. But they also could talk about modern culture and I could analyse what's happening right now in Palestine and could talk to me about gender fluidity and things. 00:27:37 to 00:28:15 Linh Dao (Guest) | So I don't know if it's like the TikTok education or it's like, Vietnamese traditional education could be the muse of the tour, because we cannot distinguish between what's online and what's offline right now with the way Vietnamese people in general and just honestly, the world consume technology these days. But I do see one perk is that the younger people of 16-17 years old and the people in their early 20s, they don't seem as naive as they used to. Ian (Host) | I think that's definitely got to do with the Internet. When you were kicking around the old quarter, you didn't have a smartphone, right? 00:28:15 to 00:28:24 Linh Dao (Guest) | Not at all. I didn't know what a smartphone was until I left Vietnam. Like, way after I left Vietnam. 00:28:24 to 00:28:57 Ian (Host) | Yeah. It's got to be Facebook. It's got to be TikTok. Vietnamese kids are on their phones a lot. Linh Dao (Guest) | I feel like Covid and the pandemic accelerated this new generation of people who were just glued to their phones. Ian (Host) | You touched on something that I've wanted to talk to someone about for ages, but never really found the right person. Maybe it's you. Maybe I can talk to you about this. Can you help me explain or break down “Sống ảo”? 00:28:57 to 00:29:03 Linh Dao (Guest) | Oh, “Sống ảo” means you live online. Literal translation. “Sống” means to live. And “Ảo” is not real. “Ảo” is online. 00:29:04 to 00:29:59 Linh Dao (Guest) | Okay, so just basically a way, it’s a term people use for people who do something only for the likes, only for the Internet cred, as opposed to actual street cred. Ian (Host) | Honestly, I've never seen people take photographs and pose for photographs and dress up for photographs and get props in for photographs as much as in Vietnam. And it's not only the young generation, it's the aunties, the mothers, the grandmothers as well. There's a key for success in Vietnam would be to create an instagrammable wall in your restaurant or outside your cafe that is just perfect for a photo shoot. And you will have queues of people lining up to do a shoot. Full makeup, full camera team. And I'm wondering, what's this even for? And it's literally just for Facebook. 00:30:00 to 00:30:24 Linh Dao (Guest) | Yes. So I think the importance of Facebook is not to be undermined here at all. Because I live with an American family, an American husband, American friends, people here don't care much about Facebook. People have long passed the fascination and infatuation with this technology. They have moved on to something else. Certain number of people still use Facebook, and Instagram is still quite popular. 00:30:25 to 00:30:39 Linh Dao (Guest) | But for the most part, people think of Facebook as like, boomer technology here in America, right? Not in Vietnam. In Vietnam, that's like THE technology. That's how you score things. Like, that's how you make an entire business. 00:30:39 to 00:31:09 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's where earlier in our conversation, we talked about, like, comparison and gossip. What better way to gossip and to accelerate the suite of information rather than Facebook. You can just do whatever on Facebook and everybody would know. So I think people feel the need to do business there, being very entrepreneurial there. So I think that's part of it is what drives, like, the photos and, like, the foot traffic to the restaurant just so they can show it for the likes on Facebook as well. 00:31:09 to 00:31:27 Linh Dao (Guest) | But also part of it is like, that's the community scoreboard, like I mentioned earlier. So that's how people measure success. If a person has their shit together, it's not even, like, the most updated with Vietnamese technology, or use of Facebook. And like many other things like Zalo. 00:31:27 to 00:31:48 Linh Dao (Guest) | I think people like to use Zalo feed more for things like scoreboard and things like that. But yeah, I say a combination of those types of social media platforms is what people place the most importance in. Ian (Host) | So what is it that shocks you most apart from, perhaps the use of the smartphone, when you come back to Vietnam these days? 00:31:48 to 00:32:11 Linh Dao (Guest) | Just the speed at which things happen. It has to do with where I am in America. I live in Colorado. It's a mountain town, very quaint and very quiet. And if we want to order some things on Amazon, we’ll have to wait for a couple of days. In Vietnam, I would order something off Shopee and it arrives in 2 hours. 00:32:11 to 00:32:33 Linh Dao (Guest) | And the “shipper” would be like: “I'm so sorry it arrived so late. We guarantee 1 hour” - So I was shocked. Again, that gap between 18 to 22 is when I see the most surprising things about the development in Vietnam. The growth of technology, adoption of technologies, people's expectation of what technology can do. 00:32:33 to 00:33:07 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's when the most jump happened to me. So, yeah, it was mostly shop by the us, the expectation that things just instantaneously arrive within an hour, Ian (Host) | Just on e-commerce stuff, I've got some stat bombs for you. 54.3% of the hundred million population buy something online weekly from Shopee, Lazada, TikTok shop, Tiki or Grab. And that's projected to grow 28% annually for the next two years. Next time you come back, e-commerce is going to be even bigger. 00:33:12 to 00:33:41 Ian (Host) | So I know Vietnam's been viewed a certain way in the past and perhaps even currently. What do you think the Vietnam brand could be on the world stage? Linh Dao (Guest) | Like, to a global audience? Ian (Host) | Yeah. Linh Dao (Guest) | If I were to give a TED talk about coming to Vietnam or something, I would say the best quality of the Vietnamese people, and Vietnamese businesses in general are just their agility and just the entrepreneurial spirit of the people despite lack of resources and lack of whatever. 00:33:41 to 00:34:27 Linh Dao (Guest) | People don't seem deterred by challenges or by shortage of things. So we just say people are just so agile and so resilient in the face of hostility and in the face of challenges, shortage and lack of resources. The Vietnamese brand, the country is super young, so very adaptive. Because we're young, we don't really have the baggage of an older country. Right? With expectation privileges, with things that they know. Oh in the good old days, things used to be like that. No, in the good old days, we didn't have anything because we weren't born, this is all we know. Got a hustle. 00:34:27 to 00:34:50 Linh Dao (Guest) | I just feel like to a global audience, I would say hire in Vietnam. Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I've been hiring for HackerNoon for eight years now. I hired from Europe, I hired from Africa, from everywhere in America, from Vietnam, from Pakistan, India, places in Asia, and I would just say Asia in general, Vietnamese people in particular. Amazing work ethics, very enthusiastic, very passionate, willing to make compromises, willing to integrate into the culture, whatever the culture is of the company. Right? So definitely hire in Vietnam. 00:34:50 to 00:35:26 Ian (Host) | You saying about in other countries where we're like, oh, gone are the days when, you know, “back in my day” and it feels like in Vietnam, there's a general feeling, and this comes up a lot as well on this podcast, that “Tomorrow is going to be better than today and we have a plan to make it happen”. 00:35:26 to 00:35:51 Linh Dao (Guest) | There's no sense of entitlement and fall back into the good old days. It's always, no, we have to move forward to the good new days because that's the future, right? That's what we're building towards. My parents have to sacrifice a lot so that our life is better. And I think, like, that mentality carries forward to other generations as well. Like, people just want to take charge of their own future and of their own Vietnam. Just make it as good as they can be. 00:35:51 to 00:36:34 Linh Dao (Guest) | I think that's where they think business happens. Unfortunately or fortunately, you can think of it either way, because honestly, it also democratises a lot of things that used to not be as equal, like women, people in the countryside versus people in the cities, young people, old people who have more resources, like richer versus poorer people with the smartphones, with the technology, it democratises so much of that, it makes it so flatter for things to happen. And gotta give props to just if any people would adopt technology, that would be the Vietnamese people. If they just adopt things like that, like whatever technology. 00:36:39 to 00:37:16 Ian (Host) | I’d like to end these episodes by asking you, what are you most excited about for Vietnam? Linh Dao (Guest) | I'm just so optimistic about the young generation. That's my biggest hope, is that they don't just care about the things that my generation, my parents, grandparents generation used to care about, which is just security, stability, economic prosperity, things like that. They, like, start to care about the world now. They start to care about sustainability, they start to care about gender equality, like just social things. 00:37:16 to 00:37:51 Linh Dao (Guest) | And I think we were afforded that because our previous generations work hard so that we don't have to worry about that Maslow Pyramid. Like, if you have to worry every single day being bombed, you have to worry every single day not having enough food on the table, then how are you going to fight for gender equality? Right? Like, obviously that's not the biggest priority back in the days. 00:37:51 to 00:38:19 Linh Dao (Guest) | But I think now that the country is in a pretty good economic position, good strategic geography as well, to just be like, there's two big global powers. There's America, there's China. We're close to China, but they've been our enemy for a long time. But we don't want to be, like, directly averse to them for many reasons. But then there's also America, who needs allies. And all to say that Vietnam is in its strategic position to be friends with people and to develop economically and socially without having to go too much one way or another. And that's great. 00:38:19 to 00:38:45 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's a bright future for the country and for the young generation, too. I'm hoping that when my children come back to Vietnam, because I hope they sure one day would do, to find half of their roots. They would have an even better time and better life than I am currently feeling like I'm awarded and I'm afforded. And that way, it's very similar to my grandparents and my parents. What they were thinking back then, it just. It's getting better. 00:38:46 to 00:38:59 Ian (Host) | You've been listening to You don't know Vietnam. I'm Ian Paynton from We Create Content. I'd like to thank DJ Jace from the beats Saigon for their epic soundtrack and a massive thank you to you for making it all the way to the end. In this podcast “You don't know Vietnam”, host Ian Payton of We Create Content, helps demystify Vietnam for global audiences by talking to the creatives, trendsetters and business owners who are taking on the market. HackerNoon COO Linh Dao Smooke , who was born & raised in Hanoi Vietnam, was invited to the podcast to discuss her unique upbringing and how it influenced her thinking about marketing and business in Vietnam, including: host Ian Payton HackerNoon COO Linh Dao Smooke was invited to the podcast 🇺🇸 How Vietnam seems to be perceived by people in America 📣 What it's like to be raised in the heart of Hanoi's Old Quarter 👩🎓 Vietnam's education system (and if it adequately prepares young people 😮 What shocks Linh most when she returns to Vietnam now 😭 Why global brands can mess up their local marketing efforts CLICK BELOW TO WATCH THE FULL VIDEO https://youtu.be/b4JMZg94DqI?feature=shared&embedable=true https://youtu.be/b4JMZg94DqI?feature=shared&embedable=true "In a communal culture, that's how people connect... via stories”, says Linh Dao Smooke. "In a communal culture, that's how people connect... via stories”, says Linh Dao Smooke. There's something about the close-knit nature of Vietnamese communities that really lends itself to a bit of gossip. In a nutshell, here’s what it means for global marketing directors looking at Vietnam as their next growth market... 🇻🇳 Don't underestimate word of mouth in Vietnam - it's still HUGE 🇻🇳 It doesn't matter how good your product is if nobody local can vouch for it 🇻🇳 Spend time turning customers into advocates - it will go a long way 🇻🇳 People want to see it popular among peers - you must be doing the most on social (and have the vanity likes to prove it) Check out the podcast on Spotify here, Apple Podcast here, and Youtube here. Full transcript below. Check out the podcast on Spotify here , Apple Podcast here , and Youtube here . Full transcript below. here here here PODCAST TRANSCRIPT 00:00:26 to 00:01:05 00:00:26 to 00:01:05 Ian (Host) | Welcome to you don't know Vietnam, the show that demystifies Vietnam for global audiences by talking to the creatives, trendsetters and business owners who are taking on the market. Forget what you thought you knew about Vietnam. It's no longer that as you're about to find out. I'm Ian Paynton, co-founder of Wecreate Content, a content marketing agency that builds audiences for global brands of Vietnam. On today's episode of You don't know Vietnam, I'm talking to Linh Dao Smooke in Colorado, who is the COO of Hacknoon, a website for people in the tech industry to read, write and get published. 00:01:06 to 00:01:38 00:01:06 to 00:01:38 Ian (Host) | Amazingly, it has more than 45,000 contributing writers for millions of readers each month. But today, me and Linh talk about pretty much everything except HackerNoon, from how she thinks Vietnam is perceived by people in America to what it was like being raised in the heart of Hanoi's old quarter and what shocks her most when she returns to Vietnam today. We also talk about the importance of brands earning trust with word of mouth and social media in Vietnam and why stubborn global brand directors often miss the mark with their local marketing efforts. 00:01:44 to 00:02:07 00:01:44 to 00:02:07 Linh Dao (Guest) | Hey, Ian. Hello. Thanks for joining me on the you don't know Vietnam podcast. Of course, I don't know if other guests have ever told you this, but the intro music to your podcast is called Cải Lương. And I grew up five minutes within a Cải Lương theatre because that's where my dad and my grandpa and all my uncles worked. 00:02:07 to 00:02:21 00:02:07 to 00:02:21 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's the music to my heart when I was little. Ian (Host) | So tell me what Cải Lương is then. Just for those that don't know. Linh Dao (Guest) | Cải Lương is reformed theatre, I believe. I think it has roots thousands and thousands of years ago. 00:02:21 to 00:02:50 00:02:21 to 00:02:50 Linh Dao (Guest) | It's the national music of Vietnam. I mean, there's three national music in Vietnam there’re Tuồng, Chèo, Cải Lương. They're like endangered species. But like, for music, people are not as taken up to Cải Lương anymore these days. So people in the government are trying to preserve it as much as possible by funding these theatres, one of which is where my dad has been working at, the Golden Bell theatre in the heart of the old quarter for almost 40 years now. 00:02:50 to 00:02:59 00:02:50 to 00:02:59 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's how long he's been working there. Ian (Host) | That's the one where they have face pain, right? Linh Dao (Guest) | No, that's Tuồng. Ian (Host) | Oh, okay. 00:02:59 to 00:03:29 00:02:59 to 00:03:29 Linh Dao (Guest) | So Tuồng is very dramatic and there's a lot of dramatic movements and masks and stuff. Cải Lương is sad. Like, you just heard of a Cải Lương music, and it just makes you want to cry forever. Because Vietnam is an old country with quite a sad history for thousands of years. The sad history comes from the fact that Vietnam was invaded so many times by different countries, different foreign powers. 00:03:29 to 00:03:59 00:03:29 to 00:03:59 Linh Dao (Guest) | When the French finally left and the Americans came, the Americans on this side thought that, oh, we're liberating the country from the red wave and the communists and whatever, right? To Vietnamese people. It's literally just another one of those invaders that have been eyeing Vietnam, this beautiful country by the ocean. When I talked to my American friends and my American family about that, they were shocked. They never thought that's how Vietnamese people viewed American interests at the time. 00:03:59 to 00:04:16 00:03:59 to 00:04:16 Linh Dao (Guest) | Like, America thinks of the Vietnam war, which in Vietnam, we call the American war, as very righteous, right? The Americans thought “Oh, that's the right thing to do. We were just high on winning, fascism or whatever. And now it's our turn to liberate Vietnam”. 00:04:16 to 00:04:39 00:04:16 to 00:04:39 Linh Dao (Guest) | But no, Vietnamese people didn't think that way and still don't think that way. I think that's the one thing that would always be a disagreement on, is, like, what's the point of that war in the mind of many people? Ian (Host) | I can't believe that the music evokes so much memory and so much emotion and so much conversation. I'm glad that it does. Not that it makes one feel sad, but that it evokes something. 00:05:12 to 00:05:49 00:05:12 to 00:05:49 Linh Dao (Guest) | Do you know what they do now with traditional Vietnamese music? And by “they” I mean the people who care to preserve the music - like my dad, basically he combines it with Jazz music. Or there are other people that combine them with Rap and other genres of modern music. To make them more palatable to the younger audience because young people do want to appreciate traditional music - it’s just that it was associated for a long time with sadness, and frankly, the government just forced it down our throat a little bit because it's such a huge part of the country. So the young people of my generation didn't feel as much appreciation towards it, but I feel like Gen Z and the TikTok generation, they turn all the way back around and they actually find new appreciation for Cải Lương and the likes. Ian (Host) | The other thing I was thinking when you were talking about the American war versus the Vietnam War and how Vietnam's moved on, which it really has, hasn't it, by the way? 00:05:49 to 00:06:05 00:05:49 to 00:06:05 Linh Dao (Guest) | I think so. Not completely with the older generation. Like, I remember when Bill Clinton visited Vietnam. That was like the first modern president who visited Vietnam. He made the front page of some of the important newspapers and I remember some old people. 00:06:05 to 00:06:52 00:06:05 to 00:06:52 Linh Dao (Guest) | At the time I think it was the two thousands so, old that would have meant people born in the like thirties or the forties, did have some problem with it. But the young people, which is, wow, Vietnam has finally stopped being shunned from the global economy and an American president actually made an effort to visit Vietnam. It's a huge milestone, and obviously you fast forward to today. And Vietnam loves being integrated into every single facet of the global economy and pretty much wants to consume and produce and be part of any and all products. Ian (Host) | It still feels like everyone wants a piece of Vietnam as well. Vietnam's welcoming all sorts of presidents and prime ministers, friends with everyone. At the moment, I think it's playing it really well. 00:06:52 to 00:07:21 00:06:52 to 00:07:21 Linh Dao (Guest) | Recently, Tim Cook just visited Vietnam and that made headlines. Yeah, I think the country really just wants to be past that stereotype of the country as being war-torn. Like, it's been such a long time, but I think some parts of the world still think of Vietnam like that. And I think maybe podcasts like yours would help reshape and refresh people's impression of Vietnam. 00:07:22 to 00:07:58 00:07:22 to 00:07:58 Ian (Host) | How do you find people's perception about Vietnam today in America, would you say? Linh Dao (Guest) | I think it depends on where in America and what kind of exposure these people have to Vietnamese people. If you only have met Vietnamese people who migrated here a long time ago, they would think of Vietnam as that stereotypical war torn, broken slightly backwards. And they don't really have a lot of modern, updated imageries of Vietnam to talk about. So they would talk about what they knew the best, which was frozen back in time truly, it would be images of when they just left, lots of sadness and tragedy. 00:07:58 to 00:08:30 00:07:58 to 00:08:30 Linh Dao (Guest) | I was basically raised in peace. I have never known war, I was born in 1990, and even my parents who were born in 1968 knew a little bit of war, but even not that much. So if I asked them, they couldn't have told me too much of their early memories, because once they, like, gained memories, the country was at peace. Maybe the country was poor and was shunned from the global economy, but it wasn't war torn. 00:08:30 to 00:09:13 00:08:30 to 00:09:13 Linh Dao (Guest) | So when I eventually went to America and I methadore people who also went to America the education way, I found that it's almost our duty to just tell American friends that, hey, you should check out Vietnam today and see what you think. I remember the first time my American husband, boyfriend at the time, went to Vietnam. He was surprised that every single coffee shop that we went to was playing American music. And all the theatres, all the cinemas were updated with the latest version of the Spiderman verse or whatever Marvel and DC were up to those days, like, one day in America and the European markets and then the very next day in Vietnam. 00:09:13 to 00:09:37 00:09:13 to 00:09:37 Linh Dao (Guest) | Yeah. The adoption and just the enthusiasm and interest people have in the american culture would surprise a lot of Americans when they first come here. If you ever went to Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh City, you'll be in for a big shock if, like, your image in Vietnam is like rice, putty and buffaloes. I did not see a buffalo in my life until I was very old. I think way past 20. 00:09:37 to 00:10:03 00:09:37 to 00:10:03 Linh Dao (Guest) | I was learning how to drive at the time. So, like, I went down the road very far away from Hanoi and then I saw a real life buffalo stopping us in the middle of the road. That's my first encounter with one when I was 21. Ian (Host) | So it's interesting as well that you've only known peace and probably your parents pretty much only new peace as well. I think a lot of people overseas forget that 50% of the population in Vietnam is actually under 30. It's quite a young population. 00:10:03 to 00:10:24 00:10:03 to 00:10:24 Linh Dao (Guest) | Such a young country, if you think about it. I am over 30. I'm one of the old folk and I'm 33, so, yeah, that's mind blowing. So if I don't know anything about war, even my parents, that basically most of the country has to move on because that's all we know. 00:10:24 to 00:10:59 00:10:24 to 00:10:59 Ian (Host) | It does surprise me, actually, how hospitable the Vietnamese are. Considering how you talk about the countless foreign entities that have tried to actually conquer Vietnam. Linh Dao (Guest) | Yeah, I think vietnamese people are just very warm by nature, and that's, like, a gross generalisation, obviously. Like, within any country and culture and any people, there are different tiers, different variations, but I would just say the culture places strong emphasis on warmth and welcoming hospitality. And I think it started from, like, village culture. 00:10:59 to 00:11:14 00:10:59 to 00:11:14 Linh Dao (Guest) | “It takes a village to raise a child”. So, like, people would go to the rice party to work together. So what do the children do at home? They have to play together. They have to rely on the kindness of, basically, the rest of the community. 00:11:15 to 00:11:52 00:11:15 to 00:11:52 Linh Dao (Guest) | When I was having my child, I was in for a big shock when my experience with being raised in Vietnam versus my experience raising a child here taught me that it takes a village to raise a child everywhere. Here, I have to ask, and my in-laws are amazing. If I ask, they would absolutely do everything in their power to help me. But the thing is, I couldn't get past having to ask. In Vietnam, we would just automatically assume that the village would obviously take part in raising the child right? 00:11:52 to 00:12:15 00:11:52 to 00:12:15 Linh Dao (Guest) | And not just like your closest family. It's like your friends and your uncles and your cousins and whoever that are around. At least that was my experience growing up. I would just, like, roam around from house to house, and the neighbours would be my mom for the day because my parents were not at home. Even though I was in the middle of the old quarter, I was like a city girl through and through. 00:12:15 to 00:12:39 00:12:15 to 00:12:39 Linh Dao (Guest) | It was still very much a communal experience, rather than just a singular, like, one, two parents household. No. The rest of the community cares about you as well. You can even see that in the Vietnamese language and the pronouns and the way people address each other. Ian, I assume that you are older than 33. So I would address you as my brother - And Ian, if you were Vietnamese and somebody who looks like my mom's age, I would call them aunt go or back. 00:12:39 to 00:13:05 00:12:39 to 00:13:05 Linh Dao (Guest) | Because the assumption is everybody is your family. That's embedded in the Vietnamese language, that you should treat everybody like they're related to you. Ian (Guest) | I can see the benefits of having such a communal upbringing. Would you say there were any challenges with that as well? 00:13:05 to 00:13:41 00:13:05 to 00:13:41 Linh Dao (Guest) | So just, like, generally lack of personal space, like, lack of appreciation for privacy and personal space in general, it's nice for people not to all of the time get into your business and tell you how to do things. Because when you're, like, at each other's throat all the time, like, there's a lot of judgement and there's a lot of harsh words as well that could come your way. People are very complimentary in general. People don't want to be mean to your face usually. But people also are very frank in the culture of Vietnam. 00:13:41 to 00:14:04 00:13:41 to 00:14:04 Linh Dao (Guest) | So instead of just asking politely and implying that they want to know something, they just ask directly. For example, how much do you make? How much do you pay for the car? Vietnamese people don't shy away from that kind of conversation. So I would say just the cons is that I never knew that I needed personal space and privacy until I got out of Vietnam. 00:14:04 to 00:14:38 00:14:04 to 00:14:38 Linh Dao (Guest) | And then also, I appreciated not being judged so frankly and harshly to my face, like, being commented on, like, my weight or my appearance all the time, for example. So, yeah, there's pros and cons to both. Ian (Host) | Was there, like, societal pressure with everyone kind of being in everyone's business and everyone knowing each other's news? Linh Dao (Guest) | Yeah, there's a lot of comparison. For example, if their kids go to the same school, everybody knows how their kids rank within the education system, like what grades they have. 00:14:38 to 00:15:13 00:14:38 to 00:15:13 Linh Dao (Guest) | One time I was in 9th grade and I was always a good student in the Vietnamese system, but I was also dating. And apparently that's like a taboo thing back in the day. It’s scandalous, apparently, for a 15 year old to have feelings. So then one of my mom's friends whose daughter was in the same class with me and who was ranking around the same top group, pulled my mom aside and was like, “Hey, do you know that ling is dating?” And in a very judgy voice. 00:15:13 to 00:15:36 00:15:13 to 00:15:36 Linh Dao (Guest) | And it got to my mom, she was projecting this like a perfect image on me: “Yeah, I have this daughter who does really well in school and like, how dare you come around tell me that she was not all perfect”. And I want to say to my mom, like, if I were my mom at that time, I would be like, “good for her”. But no, my mom didn't do that. She got pretty upset with me. 00:15:36 to 00:15:56 00:15:36 to 00:15:56 Linh Dao (Guest) | So, yeah, absolutely. There's so much comparison and judgement and pressure because everybody talks. Ian (Host) | The Vietnamese quite like a bit of gossip, don't they? Am I fair to say that I used to feel like if you needed to know what was going on in the neighbourhood, go and speak to the local, like, tea seller. The lady who's selling tea. 00:15:57 to 00:16:17 00:15:57 to 00:16:17 Ian (Host) | Yeah, I remember I sat down with this grandmother who was selling tea on the corner when I used to live in the old corner as well. Linh Dao (Guest) | Literally selling tea, so on the nose. Ian (Host) | And back then I had a girlfriend that was a bit older than me and she had two kids already. Yeah. I told this grandmother that my girlfriend was a bit older with two kids. 00:16:17 to 00:16:44 00:16:17 to 00:16:44 Ian (Host) | And literally every woman that walked past, she would shout out to her and say: “This guy here has got an older Vietnamese girlfriend, two kids already!” And would say it to every woman that went past. And I said to her: “Why didn't you just shout it on the loudspeaker?” Linh Dao (Guest) | I mean, a lot of times it builds trust and connection. Just so people think that because you were comfortable enough to share the story with you, now it's out of your hands. That's her story to tell now. That's her currency now. 00:16:44 to 00:17:02 00:16:44 to 00:17:02 Linh Dao (Guest) | If you think about it, it makes sense, right? Like in a communal culture, like, that's how people connect via stories. At the core of it, gossip, sad stories. Now, if they exaggerate the stories and if they tell lies, that's something else. 00:17:02 to 00:17:45 00:17:02 to 00:17:45 Linh Dao (Guest) | I think it starts from a good goal of just connections. And that's the currency of the communal culture, is connections and stories. Building community in Vietnam is so much more about personal connections, not like gossip, but like word of mouth and people's personal trust in your product and your company in America, it's not as intense. You know, you don't have to build a Facebook group, for example. You don't have to gather thousands of likes on a community chat. You just have to have a good product. Maybe the market is more mature so people rely less on word of mouth. But in Vietnam, uh uh. Gotta be all word of mouth. 00:17:45 to 00:18:00 00:17:45 to 00:18:00 Ian (Host) | And like these vanity metrics as well, you know? Linh Dao (Guest) | Absolutely. Social media is like community scoreboards. It's a competitive sport, and people do take that very seriously. Ian (Host) | Trust is something that comes up quite a lot on this podcast. In a country where information is relatively hard to verify or access or might be out of date, I think it's really important too. But also the building trust thing can't be rushed, I don't think, in Vietnam. 00:18:01 to 00:18:27 00:18:01 to 00:18:27 Linh Dao (Guest) | Yeah, I can tell you that people's not gonna buy a product or a service or a concept unless somebody close to them has already verified that. And I have first hand experience with that. 00:18:27 to 00:18:53 00:18:27 to 00:18:53 Linh Dao (Guest) | So, before HackerNoon was working for this brand new university, I was one of its 1st 50 employees. So it was back in 2014 when I started working for Minerva University. Basically, my job was to convince skeptical Asian parents that this is the next Harvard. Okay. So the first thing I did was, I understand the challenge of it being a trust issue, right? 00:18:53 to 00:19:41 00:18:53 to 00:19:41 Linh Dao (Guest) | Like this brand new university, there was no one there to verify to these parents that this university works and exists. So I had to build a network of, however small, the people who actually have gone to the university before. At that point, it was one person, like my best friend, now - Thi. She was the only person from Vietnam who had been to Minerva for one year. So together we decided to do a little campaign that doesn't talk specifically about the university, but talks about the idea of Globe Charter and of global education, of like, how many time zones have you been and how wonderful it is to be like, a global citizen of the world. That campaign got overnight success. 00:19:41 to 00:20:10 00:19:41 to 00:20:10 Linh Dao (Guest) | Within a few days, we got more applications and more interest in the university than we have ever had in our whole history of Minerva being in Vietnam. And you know what happened? It got shut off at the headquarter level. Of Minerva in San Francisco because they think that we are off brand. And I was just thinking in my head: “Dude, like, I was hired to be the Southeast Asian regional manager”. 00:20:10 to 00:20:36 00:20:10 to 00:20:36 Linh Dao (Guest) | Like, I know how to get to the heart of these Vietnamese parents and students. They need something to grasp onto. Like your whole, like, Minerva spioge of whatever innovation, it's not gonna get Vietnamese parents, they don't understand it, they don't buy it. Ian (Host) | I think you've touched on something really important. What works in other markets, especially western markets and even other Asian markets, isn't necessarily gonna work in Vietnam. 00:20:36 to 00:21:09 00:20:36 to 00:21:09 Ian (Host) | And I think it's about giving whoever's tasked to market to the Vietnamese the space they need working perhaps within some guardrails, flexibility to make it work in Vietnam to connect with the Vietnamese. The way we get around that is by doing this body of work upfront before we start working with the brand. That's based on insights of Vietnamese people. This is the ballpark in which we're playing with regards to positioning and messaging still on brand. We get that all agreed first and then we experiment within that already agreed guardrail. 00:21:09 to 00:21:45 00:21:09 to 00:21:45 Ian (Host) | And I feel like, let's brand directors from overseas go: “Okay. They're still respecting the brand, but they're taking these insights from real people in Vietnam and tapping into that to create something that's going to resonate locally”. Linh Dao (Guest) | If you don't have flexibility to get to the level to meet people where they are at, then your brand would just sit on this ivory tower forever. Like, it's not going to reach the people that you need to reach. It's a reason why all these big global companies have to go to Vietnam and have to develop localization techniques and expertise. It's not that simple. 00:21:45 to 00:21:57 00:21:45 to 00:21:57 Ian (Host) | It's really not that simple. In just Google translating it from afar and going, this is the regional message, this is the global message. This is what needs to get translated into Vietnamese…. 00:22:02 to 00:22:32 00:22:02 to 00:22:32 Ian (Host) | So you grew up in the old quarter, around your family, around neighbours, around grandmothers selling tea, gossiping about you, dating, and then you go to India on a scholarship with the United World college. Linh Dao (Guest) | My world all of a sudden completely got turned upside down. And it was so surreal. Mainly because for the longest time, for 1617 years, I was in this bubble, speaking mostly Vietnamese. I was a good student, but in a very rigid way. 00:22:32 to 00:22:59 00:22:32 to 00:22:59 Linh Dao (Guest) | Like, I can just be a good student if I know my materials by heart. I don't have to be creative in any way whatsoever. I don't have to really share my personal thoughts or feelings about anything. Learning and knowing was just all about what the teachers say - Do what I say, not what I do. So the first time in India where that shocked me was there was an assignment, I think it was “Things fall apart” by Chinua Achebe. 00:22:59 to 00:23:27 00:22:59 to 00:23:27 Linh Dao (Guest) | It's like a very famous text and it has multiple themes to it. That was the first time I had to analyse an English text, basically doing what Vietnamese people call the subject of literature. But in English, back in Vietnam, I just learned literature and English as two separate subjects. Right? And I would have to merge the two, let alone using my own thoughts and my own feelings about the text to analyse it. 00:23:27 to 00:23:53 00:23:27 to 00:23:53 Linh Dao (Guest) | That was extremely hard. So I took so much notes during the class and I even asked my roommate, who was Indian, for her notes, which, by the way, in Vietnam, that would have been complimented. Like, everybody would applaud you for going above and beyond, just like gathering all these notes. And when I borrowed Namu's notes, that's my roommate's name, and combined them with my notes from class. And then I wrote the essay. 00:23:54 to 00:24:16 00:23:54 to 00:24:16 Linh Dao (Guest) | A week later, I got back the essay and my teacher at the time did a huge. “You plagiarised”, like, big red letters all over my essay and was just like: “This is bad”. Oh, my goodness. That experience brought down my self esteem like no others. Number one, I have no idea what plagiarism means. 00:24:16 to 00:24:45 00:24:16 to 00:24:45 Linh Dao (Guest) | Vietnamese education at the time has never taught me that we literally just paraphrase people's text all the time. That's how we were taught to analyse literature is, like, going from Sách Văn Mẫu. Văn Mẫu is literally translated to sample text. So you, like, go from văn mẫu to, like, the teacher's notes to maybe some of your notes, some other people's notes. You combine it into this hot pot of essays. Apparently you're not supposed to look at any notes at all. 00:24:45 to 00:25:26 00:24:45 to 00:25:26 Linh Dao (Guest) | You know, you're just supposed to, like, discuss in the class and have your own feelings about. These are some big topics. For a 17 year old Vietnamese girl who has never, ever studied about African nationalism, that experience, like, scared me a lot. So it's just a sneak peek into the many differences between the two education systems. Vietnamese, at the time, when I was educated, wanted to produce people who listened to others, who listened to instructions, who would be great corporate workers, government workers, factory workers, people who don't need to, like, trendset or anything. 00:25:26 to 00:26:05 00:25:26 to 00:26:05 Linh Dao (Guest) | The Indian education I was receiving was the United World college education. I would consider that a global western education. And that through line into my Brown education is very much trying to produce, like, the liberal arts type, able to mix and match ideas, comprehend things in different ways, and hopefully being business owners and trendsetters and set up the next, I don't know, Tesla or Apple. So it's like throwing me from, like, this tiny little pond into the big ocean, almost drowned. Like, it was a very scary experience for a 17 year old to go through. 00:26:05 to 00:26:40 00:26:05 to 00:26:40 Ian (Host) | I wonder how much the Vietnamese education system has changed since then. And if it hasn't, do you think it's failing young Vietnamese people in terms of being prepared for the world? Linh Dao (Guest) | I think it has got to change since even between me and my brother, who are eight years apart, I think he was allowed the freedom that I wasn't. He was allowed the ability to be creative with the text. I remember back in his 11th grade, he got an assignment to, like, make a play out of Truyện Kiều. 00:26:40 to 00:26:58 00:26:40 to 00:26:58 Linh Dao (Guest) | Truyện Kiều is, like, a very important story in the vietnamese culture. It's about this, the story of the girl who sold herself to save her father. He was able to use the text in a more expansive manner. Like, he was doing a play. He was doing voices. He made some jokes about the play as well. So I remember that. 00:26:58 to 00:27:37 00:26:58 to 00:27:37 Linh Dao (Guest) | So, yeah, to answer your question, it has got to change over time now, because I've seen that within the people we hire at HackerNoon as well, with the young new Vietnamese people that I started to hire from my company. And I see that, yeah, they have the work ethics, they have the things that are so hardcore and ingrained into my Vietnamese education as I knew it. But they also could talk about modern culture and I could analyse what's happening right now in Palestine and could talk to me about gender fluidity and things. 00:27:37 to 00:28:15 00:27:37 to 00:28:15 Linh Dao (Guest) | So I don't know if it's like the TikTok education or it's like, Vietnamese traditional education could be the muse of the tour, because we cannot distinguish between what's online and what's offline right now with the way Vietnamese people in general and just honestly, the world consume technology these days. But I do see one perk is that the younger people of 16-17 years old and the people in their early 20s, they don't seem as naive as they used to. Ian (Host) | I think that's definitely got to do with the Internet. When you were kicking around the old quarter, you didn't have a smartphone, right? 00:28:15 to 00:28:24 00:28:15 to 00:28:24 Linh Dao (Guest) | Not at all. I didn't know what a smartphone was until I left Vietnam. Like, way after I left Vietnam. 00:28:24 to 00:28:57 00:28:24 to 00:28:57 Ian (Host) | Yeah. It's got to be Facebook. It's got to be TikTok. Vietnamese kids are on their phones a lot. Linh Dao (Guest) | I feel like Covid and the pandemic accelerated this new generation of people who were just glued to their phones. Ian (Host) | You touched on something that I've wanted to talk to someone about for ages, but never really found the right person. Maybe it's you. Maybe I can talk to you about this. Can you help me explain or break down “Sống ảo”? 00:28:57 to 00:29:03 00:28:57 to 00:29:03 Linh Dao (Guest) | Oh, “Sống ảo” means you live online. Literal translation. “Sống” means to live. And “Ảo” is not real. “Ảo” is online. 00:29:04 to 00:29:59 00:29:04 to 00:29:59 Linh Dao (Guest) | Okay, so just basically a way, it’s a term people use for people who do something only for the likes, only for the Internet cred, as opposed to actual street cred. Ian (Host) | Honestly, I've never seen people take photographs and pose for photographs and dress up for photographs and get props in for photographs as much as in Vietnam. And it's not only the young generation, it's the aunties, the mothers, the grandmothers as well. There's a key for success in Vietnam would be to create an instagrammable wall in your restaurant or outside your cafe that is just perfect for a photo shoot. And you will have queues of people lining up to do a shoot. Full makeup, full camera team. And I'm wondering, what's this even for? And it's literally just for Facebook. 00:30:00 to 00:30:24 00:30:00 to 00:30:24 Linh Dao (Guest) | Yes. So I think the importance of Facebook is not to be undermined here at all. Because I live with an American family, an American husband, American friends, people here don't care much about Facebook. People have long passed the fascination and infatuation with this technology. They have moved on to something else. Certain number of people still use Facebook, and Instagram is still quite popular. 00:30:25 to 00:30:39 00:30:25 to 00:30:39 Linh Dao (Guest) | But for the most part, people think of Facebook as like, boomer technology here in America, right? Not in Vietnam. In Vietnam, that's like THE technology. That's how you score things. Like, that's how you make an entire business. 00:30:39 to 00:31:09 00:30:39 to 00:31:09 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's where earlier in our conversation, we talked about, like, comparison and gossip. What better way to gossip and to accelerate the suite of information rather than Facebook. You can just do whatever on Facebook and everybody would know. So I think people feel the need to do business there, being very entrepreneurial there. So I think that's part of it is what drives, like, the photos and, like, the foot traffic to the restaurant just so they can show it for the likes on Facebook as well. 00:31:09 to 00:31:27 00:31:09 to 00:31:27 Linh Dao (Guest) | But also part of it is like, that's the community scoreboard, like I mentioned earlier. So that's how people measure success. If a person has their shit together, it's not even, like, the most updated with Vietnamese technology, or use of Facebook. And like many other things like Zalo. 00:31:27 to 00:31:48 00:31:27 to 00:31:48 Linh Dao (Guest) | I think people like to use Zalo feed more for things like scoreboard and things like that. But yeah, I say a combination of those types of social media platforms is what people place the most importance in. Ian (Host) | So what is it that shocks you most apart from, perhaps the use of the smartphone, when you come back to Vietnam these days? 00:31:48 to 00:32:11 00:31:48 to 00:32:11 Linh Dao (Guest) | Just the speed at which things happen. It has to do with where I am in America. I live in Colorado. It's a mountain town, very quaint and very quiet. And if we want to order some things on Amazon, we’ll have to wait for a couple of days. In Vietnam, I would order something off Shopee and it arrives in 2 hours. 00:32:11 to 00:32:33 00:32:11 to 00:32:33 Linh Dao (Guest) | And the “shipper” would be like: “I'm so sorry it arrived so late. We guarantee 1 hour” - So I was shocked. Again, that gap between 18 to 22 is when I see the most surprising things about the development in Vietnam. The growth of technology, adoption of technologies, people's expectation of what technology can do. 00:32:33 to 00:33:07 00:32:33 to 00:33:07 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's when the most jump happened to me. So, yeah, it was mostly shop by the us, the expectation that things just instantaneously arrive within an hour, Ian (Host) | Just on e-commerce stuff, I've got some stat bombs for you. 54.3% of the hundred million population buy something online weekly from Shopee, Lazada, TikTok shop, Tiki or Grab. And that's projected to grow 28% annually for the next two years. Next time you come back, e-commerce is going to be even bigger. 00:33:12 to 00:33:41 00:33:12 to 00:33:41 Ian (Host) | So I know Vietnam's been viewed a certain way in the past and perhaps even currently. What do you think the Vietnam brand could be on the world stage? Linh Dao (Guest) | Like, to a global audience? Ian (Host) | Yeah. Linh Dao (Guest) | If I were to give a TED talk about coming to Vietnam or something, I would say the best quality of the Vietnamese people, and Vietnamese businesses in general are just their agility and just the entrepreneurial spirit of the people despite lack of resources and lack of whatever. 00:33:41 to 00:34:27 00:33:41 to 00:34:27 Linh Dao (Guest) | People don't seem deterred by challenges or by shortage of things. So we just say people are just so agile and so resilient in the face of hostility and in the face of challenges, shortage and lack of resources. The Vietnamese brand, the country is super young, so very adaptive. Because we're young, we don't really have the baggage of an older country. Right? With expectation privileges, with things that they know. Oh in the good old days, things used to be like that. No, in the good old days, we didn't have anything because we weren't born, this is all we know. Got a hustle. 00:34:27 to 00:34:50 00:34:27 to 00:34:50 Linh Dao (Guest) | I just feel like to a global audience, I would say hire in Vietnam. Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I've been hiring for HackerNoon for eight years now. I hired from Europe, I hired from Africa, from everywhere in America, from Vietnam, from Pakistan, India, places in Asia, and I would just say Asia in general, Vietnamese people in particular. Amazing work ethics, very enthusiastic, very passionate, willing to make compromises, willing to integrate into the culture, whatever the culture is of the company. Right? So definitely hire in Vietnam. 00:34:50 to 00:35:26 00:34:50 to 00:35:26 Ian (Host) | You saying about in other countries where we're like, oh, gone are the days when, you know, “back in my day” and it feels like in Vietnam, there's a general feeling, and this comes up a lot as well on this podcast, that “Tomorrow is going to be better than today and we have a plan to make it happen”. 00:35:26 to 00:35:51 00:35:26 to 00:35:51 Linh Dao (Guest) | There's no sense of entitlement and fall back into the good old days. It's always, no, we have to move forward to the good new days because that's the future, right? That's what we're building towards. My parents have to sacrifice a lot so that our life is better. And I think, like, that mentality carries forward to other generations as well. Like, people just want to take charge of their own future and of their own Vietnam. Just make it as good as they can be. 00:35:51 to 00:36:34 00:35:51 to 00:36:34 Linh Dao (Guest) | I think that's where they think business happens. Unfortunately or fortunately, you can think of it either way, because honestly, it also democratises a lot of things that used to not be as equal, like women, people in the countryside versus people in the cities, young people, old people who have more resources, like richer versus poorer people with the smartphones, with the technology, it democratises so much of that, it makes it so flatter for things to happen. And gotta give props to just if any people would adopt technology, that would be the Vietnamese people. If they just adopt things like that, like whatever technology. 00:36:39 to 00:37:16 00:36:39 to 00:37:16 Ian (Host) | I’d like to end these episodes by asking you, what are you most excited about for Vietnam? Linh Dao (Guest) | I'm just so optimistic about the young generation. That's my biggest hope, is that they don't just care about the things that my generation, my parents, grandparents generation used to care about, which is just security, stability, economic prosperity, things like that. They, like, start to care about the world now. They start to care about sustainability, they start to care about gender equality, like just social things. 00:37:16 to 00:37:51 00:37:16 to 00:37:51 Linh Dao (Guest) | And I think we were afforded that because our previous generations work hard so that we don't have to worry about that Maslow Pyramid. Like, if you have to worry every single day being bombed, you have to worry every single day not having enough food on the table, then how are you going to fight for gender equality? Right? Like, obviously that's not the biggest priority back in the days. 00:37:51 to 00:38:19 00:37:51 to 00:38:19 Linh Dao (Guest) | But I think now that the country is in a pretty good economic position, good strategic geography as well, to just be like, there's two big global powers. There's America, there's China. We're close to China, but they've been our enemy for a long time. But we don't want to be, like, directly averse to them for many reasons. But then there's also America, who needs allies. And all to say that Vietnam is in its strategic position to be friends with people and to develop economically and socially without having to go too much one way or another. And that's great. 00:38:19 to 00:38:45 00:38:19 to 00:38:45 Linh Dao (Guest) | That's a bright future for the country and for the young generation, too. I'm hoping that when my children come back to Vietnam, because I hope they sure one day would do, to find half of their roots. They would have an even better time and better life than I am currently feeling like I'm awarded and I'm afforded. And that way, it's very similar to my grandparents and my parents. What they were thinking back then, it just. It's getting better. 00:38:46 to 00:38:59 00:38:46 to 00:38:59 Ian (Host) | You've been listening to You don't know Vietnam. I'm Ian Paynton from We Create Content. I'd like to thank DJ Jace from the beats Saigon for their epic soundtrack and a massive thank you to you for making it all the way to the end.
