Utsav is back for another special episode of The HackerNoon Podcast with Ioana Frincu - the CTO of EQIFI. She's been in the crypto game since 2016 and shares stories of what she's learned and been challenged by.
One thing she mentioned was the price of smart contracts. I didn't know before she talked about it on the podcast, but smart contracts can cost at least $80-100 per contract. I didn't realize that they cost so much! She says that even if you invested $100, the fee would still be $80. Wild.
Utsav also asks her about what her crypto secrets are. I won't give away all the details because you'll have to watch it yourself ;) But unsurprisingly, she suggests holding your crypto.
And as I have now purchased Bitcoin, I feel sad about the prospect of having to hold for years and years but quite excited to ride the wave.
Enjoy the episode and stay weird! See ya on the internet ✌️
Ioana Frincu joins Utsav Jaiswal on this week’s episode of The HackerNoon Podcast to discuss DeFi, smart contracts, and OG crypto secrets.
On this episode of The HackerNoon Podcast, Utsav asks:
Find Ioana online:
Learn more on HackerNoon:
Machine-generated, please excuse the errors!
Utsav: Ioana Frincu
[00:00:00] Utsav: So, hello and welcome to another episode of the hacker noon podcast. Today's guest is Forbes 30, under 30 for being the first person to create a company dealing in crypto and blockchain product and Romania. She is helping deliver data management and data aggregation for the 2015 rugby world cup. And from 2016 on forward, she is typed into the vault of cryptocurrencies has gone self-sovereign identity.
Well, it's by not the first people to set up a crypto exchange in Singapore. Today, she's joining us as a CTO at Equify. Her name is Ioana Frincu.
[00:00:46] Utsav: Without further ado, I would like to pass the mic over to her and allow her to introduce
[00:00:51] Ioana: herself. Hi, thank you for having Utsav. My name is Ioana Frincu.
I am the CTO of Equify and I'm working on delivering the next generation DeFi experience for both crypto and non-crypto users. As you said, they've been doing this since 2016. Being in the world of blockchain. And so far I've delivered over 20 different products from small to very, very large enterprises.
Utsav: Gotcha. Gotcha. That's pretty interesting. So from what we understand from thousands of miles away, miles away, uh, about, about defy is that. It's very hard to get into, and it's very easy to like, lose all your money. What would be some of your suggestions for somebody who would just be thinking about, Hey, I have, let's say a hundred dollars and I want to invest in defi.
What should they do? What should they keep in mind?
[00:01:46] Ioana: Oh, that's a very good question because. People don't really think that they can start from a small to blockchain and crypto in the fight. The only thing I have to have $400,000 to start, um, I would say that one very important thing is to take very well care of your assets, assets being cryptocurrencies.
So my suggestion always for anyone, uh, new to crypto, is to use a hardware wallet. First of all, You have different types of people, some that will just buy Krypton hold it, which is a very good thing to do. You can be there on the long run. And in this situation, I suggest buying a hardware wallets. There are multiple options out there.
There are three resorts, ledgers, and other different wallets that you can choose. They mostly do kind of the same thing. Get them very specialized one. And on them, you can keep your crypto another important element is to not lose your private keys. So everyone has a private key that you will, uh, in the case of a hardware wallet, you write down it's important to not keep the wallet and the notes in the same place.
I've seen that happen. So that's another thing. Um, also you can hold your mind. You're on an exchange and here there are different options. There's just one is to deposit funds and state. If you stake your tokens, basically staking refers to the fact that you will put your token into something similar with a deposit on an exchange, and basically you will receive interest for your total.
Um, that's a good option to please your funds without having to actively take care of them. So these are more passive methods of handling your funds. Um, also you can, uh, generate yield on them by placing them into, uh, onto decentralized exchanges, but that's the. Uh, kind of move after you have gone through the rest of the stages.
And for example, asset eight, if I have a product called yield aggregator, which does this for you, instead of you having to put your funds personally into each liquidity pool that, you know, good research and stuff like that. So I suggest, you know, get, uh, getting some documentation on the products that you use, make sure that they have licensing and they're authorized to handle your money because even though we as crypto native, sorry, pretend.
Uh, it's important to have your funds safe, especially if you're new to. And also invest as much as you can afford to invest or to buy crypto. If you have, uh, all your savings, um, like $10,000, don't put all of that money into a single place. Don't try to get yourself into a place where you basically risk losing your money and don't go to dubious places.
You should always invest your funds in something that's recognized a good brand backed by, uh, by a bank backed by a financial institution and also be able that you can get those funds out. There are also applications, which let you buy crypto, but they will never let you withdraw that crypto from them.
So that's also an important thing. There are apps that, you know, are FinTech apps, basically, where you can buy Bitcoin, but you will never be able to Withrow that Bitcoin basically. You are binding buying a financial instrument. So make sure that the crypto we're buying is actual crypto, where you're starting.
It is a good, safe place and the applications that you are using, if you want to stay or make deposits and stuff like that are actually legit. Basically.
[00:05:18] Utsav: Um, some very solid advice over. Um, I had a question about when you say that it is backed by big names and whatnot, you must have seen what happened with Metta mask the other day, they just blocked all Venezuelans.
The same thing happened they block all the Iranians, but as the west called Iranians. So do you don't even have to live in Iran to get blocked by them? There was. Like he would NFD influence that of sorts from it on who had been named as some of the, like an FTD, but watch out by the open sea people themselves about a month ago.
And like, just about yesterday, the blocker from the platform, all her assets are gone. She cannot said anything. So is that something that we can solve while having those big names on board? Cause big names that are all based going to go find that. The small Liam's they can be away from the regulation so they could be more libertarian as you like, as you like, say it, but
[00:06:19] Ioana: what's the cradle.
This is why I always suggest Harvard while wallets, no one can shut down the wallet. Um, so if you hold NFTs, don't hold them into your account on a platform. And, um, yes, all of the companies will need to respect regulations because. All of these companies have, uh, people work for them employees and they have to be registered within a country.
So I suggest to not keep all your funds on an exchange, not to keep them on a platform, having a hardware wallet, or a paper wallet is best because I doubt. So those will be blocked ever, uh, by a state. Um, also these kinds of measures of course, are not necessarily the best one for like normal people like you and me, you know, because there is a difference between what different, uh, heads of states do and what, uh, your average Joe does.
So, um, I understand the sanctions and of course they. I mean, you might say terrorism, gun trafficking and other illicit activities. So as a regular person, I always just to try to hold things on a hardware wallet, because you can always transfer them to an exchange and sell them if you really want to. But, uh, holding them in your wallet is the best thing.
Never hold them on a on a platform longterm
[00:07:37] Utsav: that's right. For all of those less bang,
on your keys, dead hardware wallets. That makes a lot of sense. Moving forward to the world of like BFI itself. Like how do you see the fight evolving? Now we see the aggregator. Oh for like all those four by four flawed nation people. Then there are like these other things where you could have a Dex fund B 5,000 and there are so many like evolutions or variants are so many times like coming out.
What are some of the sources that you use to stay on top of the latest news and how do you keep yourself informed of what's likely going on in the market? This
[00:08:22] Ioana: will sound like an advertisement, but I've been reading hacker known since 2014. So I've been, um, ever since I, I had the job in the it industry, um, when I found hacker and I started reading it, everything, is it, I think around 20 14, 20, 15, not, oh, I don't want to mess up the dates, but, um, that's one thing that the other sources that I use are a lot of articles on media.
A lot of people who post really useful information. So I don't really watch you to be influencers. Most of them are, have sponsorships and they understand it. That's your job to do not. I mean, I watch some, you have to be influencers in terms of the investing and finances stuff. But usually those who are not affiliated with crypto projects, another thing that I've done during the years was investing in different projects, but I always did my due diligence and my homework.
Right. So I never invested in dubious. So pump and dump schemes or stuff like that because you have to check the team behind the product and you have to actually make sure that you're not gonna, you know, put $100 in and take $1. Or lock your funds for the next three years. I've seen those speaking programs where you lock your funds for 10 years for one project.
And I was like 10 years. That's the same thing. Like there's so many startups that don't survive that in your threshold. It's okay to have them like one year, one and a half, but then it's insane. Um, so yeah, I would say, uh, I watch some newsletters. I try to give myself. The date with regulations. That's one very important aspect of my day-to-day job.
And, uh, for that, I use the official channels of the European union of, uh, the USC institutions and stuff like that. So I try to read the official sources. That's kind of the, the whole list. I don't have like big names that I follow or stuff like that. Read the light, then try to filter my own fuse. After so many years, you don't really need to check what's the hype to know people and you talk to them and they're really high profile.
They tell you things, then you, you basically have their own network, but for someone new, new to crypto lights, Needs to find reliable sources. I always recommend websites like, uh, like hacker noon, uh, some, uh, medium bloggers, but people who are really well-known with a big following and who have like a track record of writing things because no one can predict the market.
No one can know what the biggest surprise will be. Even if I see drugs like BDC, uh, getting to 100,000 or 300,000, none of us is Nostradamus, you know? We need to filter things. And of course, investments are dying in the long run. The only moment when you lose these, when you get out of an investment. So that's one very important aspect to have in mind and the greeting, um, specialized people who actually have a track record of good quality information is crucial
[00:11:23] Utsav: cause like you would see a lot of chatter on Twitter and it becomes very overwhelming, various.
So, so glad that we be impacted, I don't plan on this, but later attack. If I saying that made my day moving on to the Italian side of things, how do you see the Tanium evolving? Like it used to be so different back in the day today. It's so different. Like your take on the Ethereum development side of things.
And do you think we'll see the third year to this year?
[00:11:56] Ioana: Uh, you give them to this wonderful thing that keeps eluding us. I am really looking forward to . As a developer and as someone who handles defi because the main problem would have a weak defies and inequities and the whole space, to be honest, is that interacting with smart contracts is very expensive.
Stopping your tokens on any sub to cost, to operate $80 to $100. This is quite high. And especially if you want to invest $100, you don't want to pay $80 a piece. Right? So back in my days, when it was done, it was like having difficult though is not actual money. Now it's is very valuable. And of course it's taken that.
Because the price of victory, I mean, it's over $2,000. Uh, I'm not sure what the price is as we speak right now, but I think it's close to 3000 the way I see development. That's a very good question is that it's so easy to develop now on Ethereum, based on my experience five years ago, we didn't have the tools that we have today when you didn't have the, especially the auditing tools and the everything was very obscured, but at the same time, As the system evolves, the ecosystem evolved.
We have things like flash loans, sandwich attacks. We have a lot of things that we need to take care of when you're developing device. Um, so, uh, auditing has become a very lucrative business. Um, but, uh, unfortunately, um, the auditing quality in the industry is quite low. Um, so it's good to try to work also here with big, uh, big names and to also have your own developers who actually know what they're doing.
I see a lot of random blockchain developers popping. People who didn't do any other types of software development before. And that worries me because you are dealing with people's money as a smart contract developers. Uh, we are dealing with custody and you can, even if it's Materium or Bitcoin or whatever coin you have, this is people's money they have for real dollars in or their currencies to buy these.
And you cannot afford to lose them because you didn't pay attention to critical errors in your smartphone. And that also brings me back to our initial question on investment. Invest in audited things don't invest in random tokens for not listed anywhere or who are not audited because as you see it is now to just take the ERC 20 standard and implement your own token as dangerous, it is to develop anything more complex and a lot of.
Blockchain developers are limited to only the knowledge of developing ERC 20 tokens, which is disappointing. It makes recruiting of very tough thing. Um, especially in when you ask what's your development experience? Oh, I've been a blockchain developers for three, a developer for three years. Okay. So what did you do?
Oh, we are 70 tokens. Okay. Dead. Yeah. What did you actually do? You know? So the ecosystem has evolved a lot. I love seeing that there are more and more people involved, uh, participation is growing, but at the same time, a lot of corporations have started developing proprietary systems, a lot of, um, private blockchains, uh, popping up.
And it's going to be very difficult to reconcile all these technologies in the future, because especially for sticky about central bank, digital currencies and different standards of implementing them, imagine. If five sovereign banks implement five different types of blockchains with five different technologies, the six plugged into all of them.
So each time you add one, it will be worse. So we need to develop some, some device. In disrespect or some let's call them blockchain final standards between the different institutions, just like the four sift you have the empty 1 0 3, a messaging format, which tells you what the transaction contains, like the amount, the IBAN, where it goes and all those details.
It's important to also keep in mind that, um, institutions will need to have this kind of system that is separate from our India. Part, uh, in terms of ETF, Bitcoin, sending funds to one another, that's different. What was the dream two point? Oh, I really hope that we'll see this year. I cannot say it will be or not because we've been waiting.
Yeah. We've been waiting for it for a while. And I also know that it's a very difficult thing to develop, so I never felt bad or frustrated with the Ethereum developers working on this because it's such a complex system. And, uh, if we cannot afford to mess it up, It's even more responsibility for
[00:16:41] Utsav: them.
That makes a lot of sense. Like, it is vast, there are jokes, like a TV is so decentralized that people don't know how to pronounce the word, like beauty at some say, eat some cigarette ad. So it has diabetes and realized I like board. Like I have questions about your role as a CPO. Def Leppard. You are the rare species, but first I want you to make a prediction because you mentioned CBD sees like, if you were to make one prediction about like the CBD seeds are going to come out, China is building one where I live in is like going to build one, the U S probably.
There would be one for the EU as well. Which blockchain do you see being one blockchain that gets all of
[00:17:32] Ioana: on? Um, I doubt it will be one that we all know and love
um, so yeah, uh, I believe that it will be, um, private blockchains within each country that will communicate between them. We are using. I believe that because, um, having a central bank currency means that the central bank has to have some power over me and some, some rights to do some types of changes. And if we build it on uranium, it's going to be a bit too random.
You don't need to be able. Print money, first of all, cause that's their job. So they need to print my right. Uh, also they will need some sort of accounting because if we, every bank has their accounting systems and the transactions between other banks. So I believe that there will be, um, a lot of friction to get those out because each country has a different accounting standard, a different way to look at things, different fiscal legislation.
So you need to embed these things in a blockchain and also to make it as flexible as possible to update them in the future. So I believe it will be private blockchains, custom built for this kind of situation. Um, maybe at, you know, European union level or other, uh, unions, uh, levels. Uh, it will be, uh, one single type of technology, which I hope that would simplify a lot of work.
But I doubt that we will use something open source, send us centralized data security,
[00:19:12] Utsav: um, and seeing the current, like state of the world, like politics aside, if I taught just from a monetary perspective, but actually I just got like practically kicked out of the swift standard. I don't know whether it's in practice now or like, I might be like missing it, but if somebody can be blocked from something like.
And this incentivizes nation states to belong to a central standard set after swift people will look at like Russia and say, Hey, take them out. It's better for me to build a buy on
[00:19:45] Ioana: blockchain. Yeah. And also thinking that the swift like standard will exist between countries because that is what suites.
There it is right. It unifies different types of technologies and the different banks and forces them to follow a single standard. So I think this cryptocurrency or blockchain finest standard, like I like to call it will be something similar to the swift one.
[00:20:11] Utsav: Then it would be harder for like nation states to be removed from like such a blockchain system.
Right. Because you would need like, almost, you could actually like move them.
[00:20:21] Ioana: You could embed the governance. Yeah. You could embed the governance rules and do that. So the possibilities are limitless. Unfortunately I'm not the financial. Expert as I finished electronic engineering in college. So I believe that, you know, the actual people working in the central banks definitely know a lot more than I do on, uh, on what tools need to be respected.
But from a technology perspective, if I were them, I would go with something custom because I think that's the. So way to develop as a state. Um, I know this doesn't sound very crypto or very blockchain, but at the same time, I think it, um, it is, uh, important that nations, you know, um, keep them sovereign entity, keep their standard to respect the legislation they have.
And if we don't like living there, we can always move.
[00:21:11] Utsav: Right. Right, right. And like that makes a lot of sense because when we look at these tanks, like these are very evolving situations. Nation states would want to have this opportunity and so on and so forth. Yeah. Now back to my original question, which I wanted to ask you, it's like as a developer CTO, you are a very rare species.
So what does your day look like at equal five? And how do you be like cards? What I know about program. I am like, not one, but what I know about proclivities that you guys get at the zone and then you start programming and do not stop for five or six months. So how do you deal with that as a city of it, your slack or phones are ringing off the hook from 20 people who volunteer to make the shift.
[00:21:58] Ioana: do you manage that? Um, unfortunately I do not call them. Exactly because of that. Um, so, uh, my, my specialty is data management and machine learning in blockchain. You cannot really do that much, uh, but where I get involved and I think the CTO value is so to say is in the product architecture, how we want it to work, how we want to match the business and the technology for.
And how we can bring actual value to them. How do we structure things? What kind of technologies that we just, for example, do we choose to go with the type of cloud, uh, provider or with another, do we choose to use the type of blockchain infrastructure or another, you know, this kind of decision starting point.
Um, whenever I hear that the company has a company as, because we're already, we have over 20, uh, technical, uh, technology people in our team working. When I hear that the CTO still codes, I get worried, um, because, uh, the CTO is there to make decisions, you know, um, and you cannot make sure that you have made the right decisions every day.
If you keep your head in the code, this is why. Uh, other people doing that who are just as valuable. I don't want to minimizing one's contribution to anything. It's important to have a very strong team understands why you need to launch something at some point. Why does it have to look in one way and not another?
And, um, as a CTO you need to first deliver and second prioritize because the business. Everything at the same time, but you cannot clone all your people. And also developing too many things at once will cause a lot of chaos and problems because things will break and you will not know where they broke.
So my day, um, basically start squatting. I have to say that I wake up at night. I don't wake up at five. I'm not the CTO that, you know, goes out for a run and stuff like that. Um, but that's also because, uh, it usually ends at around midnight. Um, as we are a decentralized team, um, I'm based in Bucharest and part of our team is in the U S part of our team is in the UAE.
So basically I have to match all these, uh, And to be in meetings. Um, I tried to do the work as much as possible. So, you know, actually drafting the specs, making sure that everyone knows what they're doing, but I'm also very lucky that they have a team of very senior people, highly skilled who actually do their best.
It's it's a rare situation. Usually it's very difficult to find. And the fact that I was able to, uh, to source such a great team has been quite an achievement. So lately, especially about, you know, financing, reporting and all of these things that are happening in the world. And how do we tackle them? I have a lot of meetings.
I think I have like between 25 and 30 hours of meetings per week. So I have a bit of a zone fatigue, and I understand, and if someone is started from some calls and from meetings, And also try to shield our developers from meetings as much as possible. So they have like five hours of meetings per week.
And I think that's important as a CTO, you need to protect your team divide work as well as possible, not overload them and also not disappoint the business. So we need to have a very good balance between these things. You don't want to disappoint, but you also don't want your. To be frustrated because they're handling money at the end of the day.
And they need to have a clear mind when they're implementing different algorithms. So I try not to see these things as much as possible. And, um, so far it's going pretty well. Uh, but definitely working from home in a decentralized. Very different from having a team in the office also bit better. We're fully decentralized, uh, in the technology team and in the whole team, actually.
So everybody works from their home. And I think this brings, um, better understanding between people because they have to communicate. Via slack or via other systems and to understand each other's issues and problems. And it also gives them flexibility in their schedule. I don't try to force people to stay at work between 10 and six, because we don't measure as time on the chair.
We measure delivery and another supervisor number of hours. While I'm there to make sure that they deliver all the things we promise together,
[00:26:21] Utsav: spoken like a crew leader, developers love than a CD or shields them from me. They definitely love them. They are not like asked to like join this meeting and back leaving whatever developer as people they're like, dude, I just hate meetings.
I get now that we approach the end of this episode, I have a couple of like fun questions for you. So. Right. So, first one, what do you take is though, once he trade off crypto, that only those who have been here for six years, that as your friends know, and the people who joined in late don't know, uh,
[00:26:58] Ioana: don't time, the market, you cannot time the market.
I know it's not quite a big secret, but you know, I've been buying since 2016 and I keep holding. I never sell. As long as I have food on the table, I never seen. It's important to look at things like that. If Bitcoin hits $4,000, I don't feel, um, you know, I, I mean for the long run. So I would say that one important thing that I also mentioned earlier is that the only moment when you lose on an investment is when you sell the longer you sit there, the more money.
And, um, when it comes to crypto specifically, I always encourage people to be rational and to not sell at the first sight and the first problem. And there's also some cycles in the market that you notice only after you stay there for some, some years. And there are a few moments every year when crypto drops and now they're very correlated with the stock market.
So it's important to look at this current.
[00:27:59] Utsav: that makes a lot of sense, like dive in the market beats, tiding the market. I get that right. The next question is that crypto goes 24 7, right? That are no doubt. It's always on whatever could be happening. And before. Jeff keeps on moving. Right. Whether going up or going down.
So how do you deal with it? Like how do you have a Boston life? Like having like crypto
[00:28:25] Ioana: the site? I just don't open coin market cap. I just don't go there. It took a while. I just leave my phone at home. I mean, I check it every morning, but during the day I don't check it that much. Like five years ago it was opening Quinn market up five times.
Yes. Um, after, um, crypto went down a lot, like 20, 19, 20, 20, you know, I started working, uh, I was a bit of a workaholic and I still am. So I, um, I just had so many things to do that. I didn't open it and I, of course I knew the price of crypto, like, you know, the average or stuff like that. Um, and as I said, Keep talking go very, very low and I'm still in the greens.
So, uh, I don't worry that much, but, um, I think that's, that's varied with every investment. If you check it more than once a day, you have a problem. It's like a gambling problem and you need to see someone. And this is very serious. I know, I sound like I'm sending people to the therapist, but, um, it's, uh, important with any investment when you should buy like, uh, stocks or crypto, just don't open your phone every five minutes because you have a life and you have a job and you're not a day trader, so you shouldn't do that.
And during the weekends, actually, I just don't open it. I just go to the spa. I just do something. And, um, I think that if you have the urge to do this, you need to find some, some things to do like some hobbies or some something else that forces you to not have your phone in your hand because you become compulsive and that's, that's not healthy.
I almost got into a depression because of this. So I would say, just leave your phone at home and go to the supermarket, get your fruits, get your vegetables and come back home and you get, you could do two hours. No, nothing will happen. I know some people will say that I, I don't have empathy in this situation, but it's just like a, you're taking off a band-aid.
You need to do that and not open your phone five times a day. And that's very
[00:30:28] Utsav: fair. Right. Cause if you check it five times a day, you aren't going to get anything out gospel.
[00:30:36] Ioana: Yeah. The market will not go up because just leaves opens their phone. The market will not go up because I opened my phone. The market will continue to move just as it does already.
And you opening and closing this doesn't make sense. Of course you need to pay attention to the news. Like, you know, when, um, Netflix reported income. So generated the cell signal. It's good to look at the news because you know that you need to buy it. But, uh, at the same time, people will look at the news news and they will say, I need to sell.
It's important to be as rational as possible. And this goes any hand with the advice I gave earlier, which is invest, what you can afford, because the moment when you invest, what you can afford, you don't feel the urge to check it every time because your life really does not depend on. Um, and that's, that's very important, right?
[00:31:27] Utsav: Do you take that these social media influencers are to blame for such a thing? Because if I like, what do most people spend the most of their time on social media? What do they see that influencers that Lombardi these authentic houses saying, Hey, I made.
[00:31:46] Ioana: I don't think they're to blame, to be honest, because you need to pass everything through your own personal filter and I'm happy for those people.
They made a lot of money and they are an example to others. They can be seen as inspirational, or they're just doing their job. You know, being an influencer is a job to them and the business. So I would say that they're not to blame. Uh, the only thing that is to blame when we start being so compulsive about this is our own brain and we need to reeducate our.
Because one guy or a girl made a lot of, they have a Lamborghini. I'm very happy for them. I don't have a driver's license, so I can only admire them. But at the same time, I, I shouldn't blame someone else because I'm simply, uh, obsessing over. Gotcha.
[00:32:33] Utsav: Gotcha. I gave some very solid advice via responsible for that actions.
I have like, shouldn't look at other scapegoats. I learned that I had a, he would in the human intelligence cause people are,
[00:32:49] Ioana: I, I, you know, I have to otherwise size less. So, um, and also, you know, we need to make sure that we see these people as examples. Depends on what we want to extract from there. So I also have some instruments there's that they don't get the name. Like this is not okay, but, um, very specific, uh, obscured cases.
So yeah, I wouldn't go if any friends, so it tells me to buy you token number, whatever, or, you know, to, to invest random means something. I wouldn't put my money there instantly. I will do my own research, which is an advice I give to everybody because everybody asks me, oh, have you seen this stock? And I want to invest in it.
No, I have not seen this. If I work in crypto, it doesn't mean that I know all the tokens that are securities that are launched on the market that I can, but a lot of people are buying it. How did you not hear about it? Well, I'm actually doing my job building things, which does not give me enough time to check all the scam tokens that are sold online.
[00:33:52] Utsav: That makes sense. And with that, I'd like to call this up. Do you have any closing messages for the
[00:33:57] Ioana: hacker? Well, um, first of all, I'm really happy for, uh, for you guys, if you end up, uh, checking this video and if you repack and keep doing it, and, um, whenever you want to learn about crypto, do your own research and try to not learn from people past, from different projects, investor money, with, uh, with a lot of stock and, you know, make sure that you choose the best product from the money.
Preferably bank backs or authorized or licensed in jurisdictions that you are familiar. Gotcha.
[00:34:27] Utsav: Thank you, Ioana. And we hope to see you again. Thank you very much for driving the hacker podcast.
[00:34:33] Ioana: Bye-bye.