Everyone Is Doing Remote Work but Not Everyone Is Doing It Well with Michael Brooks

On this episode of the HackerNoon podcast, Amy Tom and Michael Brooks get into everything freelance. They dive into , Michael’s freelance marketplace company, how it came about, and Michael’s insights on running it. They talk about wild experiences like getting kicked out of Belarus and taking a shot of Brandy first thing every morning before work in Serbia. It’s a wild ride and you definitely should tune in! Brandy or coffee in hand, your choice ;) 🍻 https://golance.com On this episode of The HackerNoon Podcast, Amy and Michael chat about: What is Michael’s company, goLance, about? 👨🏽💼 (01:38) What does Michael want to do for the next 40 years? 👴🏼 (02:26) What did the journey to making goLance work look like? 📈 (09:40) Why work 40 hours for someone else when you can work 80 for yourself? 💀 (14:00) Does business coaching do anything for a founder/CEO? 👔 (16:35) As a founder, does your team care about your business as much as you do? 🚂 (19:00) Can the diversity that comes with having a remote team become detrimental? How does company culture play a part in this? 🌍 (23:52) How does goLance navigate payment flexibility with freelancers? 💸(27:46) Everybody is doing remote, but not everyone is doing it well; goLance’s competitive edge. 🏇(29:30) Having brandy in place of coffee in the morning, getting kicked out of Belarus, and other fun remote working experiences. 🍻 (32:30) Connect with Michael: You can check out: https://golance.com Learn more about HackerNoon: To read HackerNoon stories, check out hackernoon.com To apply for a position, check out https://careers.hackernoon.com/ Podcast Transcript (Machine Generated, Excuse the errors) [00:00:00] Hello hackers. Welcome back for another episode of the HackerNoon podcast. It's me your best friend and host Amy, Tom. And this time I am podcasting from the Netherlands AKA my new home. I have moved abroad and I am living my best European life on the other side of the pond. And it is great. Very happy to be here. Amy Tom: Very happy to be living the remote work dream. And I would love to get into that a little bit more with none other than the Michael Brooks, who is the founder and CEO of goLance. Hi, Michael. Welcome to the podcast. [00:00:49] Hi, Amy. Thank you for having me as part of the program. I appreciate it. Where were you before Amsterdam? Michael Brooks: [00:00:56] I was living in Vancouver, BC where I have lived my entire life, and I have tried to move abroad several times in my life. But for pandemic reasons or another, essentially, I've never been able to make it work, but it's always been my dream to work abroad. Amy Tom: Work remotely do that whole thing, get into a new culture. So I'm super excited to talk to you more about remote work and why that's like so cool and so important and such an up and coming thing. [00:01:28] Cool. Thanks. Thank you. Cool. Cool. Michael Brooks: [00:01:31] So tell me a little bit more about your company goals. Amy Tom: [00:01:36] Okay, so go Lance for a freelance marketplace. Michael Brooks: We help connect clients to freelancers around the world to make a magic happen. You know, hiring developers, hackers, not real hackers, good ethical hackers, but all types of freelance workers. We don't really pigeonhole ourselves into one niche for one thing over the other. We started about seven years ago. And the reason why I started was because I had another software company that I had developed a subscription billing company, and I was just about ready to exit it and let some of the other partners take over. And I was looking at what I wanted to do. For the next 40 years. I was like 36 at the time. That's seven years ago. It's just aged myself. I probably old enough to be your father basically is what I'm saying. Like, as I'm starting to digest that conversation, as I say, my, my, uh, that reality is my age old young lady. As I say my age and experienced. But so I was like, well, what. If I was going to do one thing and just commit to one thing for one business to grow one business for the next 40 years, which puts me at like 75, 76 years old. Which is when, you know, I'd probably want to slow down. I think who knows. Uh, but, but just with that in mind, what would I want to do? I remember back during the whole 2008 financial crisis. Um, really what was 2009, 2010? Uh, we got crushed. Our, our other software company got crushed and I had to let go of a huge staff. And I had like 50 people in swanky office in Newport beach, and I'm walking around and kind of overlooking everybody and staying everybody's shoulder. Trying to do the full Michael Scott put on events and you know, like Halloween costume parties, but, uh, you know, none, none of that meant anything when the money ran out. And when, when I couldn't, when I couldn't keep it going, so I had to let people go, which was painful. I hated it. I absolutely hated that process. Um, And, uh, it's, it's, it's just a terrible, it was just a very, very dark time and very troubling time. But, and I was about to walk away from the company. Also, I had built up this beautiful, ongoing concern, and I'm going, oh man, I can't even continue to support this business because I don't know how I will. But I needed people to work. And so I posted an ad, an ad on. A job on, on a, on a different work platform. That's no longer exists. The big monster that, uh, combined with another monster. And they're the biggest sponsor, but that's okay. I don't need it. I don't need you to say advertise my competitor. But, um, at the time I posted a job there and I found someone. And, he's still with the company today is now the CTO of the company and , you know, it made it so that I'm like, okay, wait a minute. I've got this office that costs so much, I've got all this parking and all this and all of these people and staff inside. And it was a challenging time, not just hated, letting good people go, but there was also a lot of pressure being in the office every day to. To continue with, um, To, to compensation, pressure and, and, and, and just pressure pressure from the people around me that I tried to meet. And I tried to try to try to have that environment, but it just didn't work. And maybe it was me, maybe it's my personality. But once I found someone off shore and or remote, and I was like, okay, well, let's just get rid of all these costs. I can afford this guy. Like a, and, and I still paid him fair. And it was, it was good. It was. It was a really good value. It was a good value for us and it was good value for him. And he's made a lot more now. He's, uh, now I hope he is very happy, but, um, It was just a, a massive value and it really saved us. So it was like, okay, that, that, that saved the business. And from that, I was like, well, what else can I do remote? So I started posting other jobs and finding other people. And as we grow, I'd know, okay, well, no, let's not hire somebody. Let's, let's try to get a freelancer out of this because this seems to work well. We had our share of, of issues with that. And we had our, our tuition where we, we kind of. Went to the wrong places, worked with the wrong people, but we were able to course correct really well and stuff I'd get away with it. I'd never be able to get away with anybody. And I know not everybody likes a time tracker, right. But clients really do. And it's a great way to start. And like now I really just use it for like the first six months. Being able to see those screenshots, course-correct watching people's work and saying, Hey. They really are they really integrating into our culture? They really be able to work whether or not they're being looked at. So at, uh, about seven years ago, I had to that other software company, subscription company response, CRM, which is like a, uh, an e-commerce subscription billing company. And I have that to a point where I'm like, okay, I don't, I don't need to be here anymore. The other partner's taking over, what do I want to do for 40 years? And I was like, you know what, I, I really love how freelancing staved my business, how I don't know what I would do. If it wasn't for these, this type of environment, I want to do this, but I want to commit. And I knew I had my idea of what the problems were with the, with now our industry counterparts and where they were failing. I looked at it and I was like, eh, you know, I think I could do better there, but I, it's not something you can just pop up a marketplace. Right? There's in there's billing, there's all types of massive, massive issues and complexities. So it's, it's like if I do this, I'm going to commit and it's going to be a, it's going to be a 40 year. So I'm 77, 77 years into that 40 year commitment. That's how I, um, it it's really, I mean, when, when you. When you take a look at, at what you can commit to for 40 years, you, you make different decisions. And, and that's, that was, one of the benefits of, of that. I kind of got lucky and fell into. It was more of a, did I know how, how much of a commitment is to jump into, to, to, to building a business. And there's kind of like a curve too, right? Like. For most entrepreneurs, they found it. And, uh, like they, they get in, they're all excited. They're ramping up, they got dollar signs in their eyes and they push and push and push, and then they're dealing with costumers and they like it. And then after four or five years, so is this, this, this is my life now. And, um, and they, they say, uh, you know, why work 40 hours for someone else when you can work 80 hours for yourself? And it's really true. But I like working and I enjoy putting in that extra effort and putting in that, uh, putting in that extra intensity time. But, uh, I wanted to commit to fully commit to something and that's, that's how I started go, Lance, because this is a space that I could fully commit to and give myself fully to. And that was, uh, that was. [00:08:59] Right. Okay. So take me back to the time when you were just starting out with gold lands and you've made this 40 year commitment and you're all set up and ready to go. Uh, how many times do you have to pivot? What was it like when you first started taking me through that process? Amy Tom: [00:09:16] It was a challenge. I mean, I think when I think of first starting right as an entrepreneur, I think of the capital, I think of putting everything on my credit card to build a business. Um, I think of all the loans that I took from family and otherwise, and, uh, and to, to build a company and it was much more high pressure. Michael Brooks: Than it than it is now. So first thing I did is I went to, uh, all the, the people that I've been working with for years and friends, and I said, Hey, um, I've started this business. I know you guys are working on these other platforms. Um, um, uh, I'm going to work to get you jobs, but I want you to work on our platform. Like we don't care where you w which platform we work on. Just get us jobs is a great, it's also going to cost you less than the other platform they go. Okay, great. So, um, we, we had a really good demo. We spent, I spent, when I first designed the, uh, when I first designed the. The initial, like mock-ups of the platform. I spent four days where, I mean, I was sleeping on the couch an hour at a time, getting up, mapping everything out. And then in my garage, like you could walk in my garage and it was like a, it was like a scene from Homeland. And like, there's like ties. Fourth and everything. And if you click here, it goes here. I mean, it was just a different way of, it was just a different way of mocking things up. But I really got into, into the design, into the site. In fact I was going so, so hard at the time that, uh, I stopped and just like wrote a parody song for my friend. And he's an attorney. I like wrote a parody song for him and it was totally ridiculous and it was just, it was like something I needed to do to get my mind off of. Being in it, but, uh, but then I haven't had TV in years and, uh, so I would take from frequent walks. But other than that, I really needed, I just remember going, I just need to do something besides this for a minute. And so I wrote in like have this whole parody song for a buddy, but, um, that, that, that early time was very hard. Cause I put literally everything I had. Um, every, every dollar I had ever made and, uh, a lot of them that I didn't have and I just pushed. And then we kept that way. I kept pushing like that a couple of, for, for a few years, three, four years, um, just kept pushing the team, pushing everybody. And I started to see that I was burning people out and I didn't need to anymore. We had gotten to a place where I didn't have everything on the line anymore. And I was still, um, I was seeing, I was seeing the effects on the people and then the people I worked with. So I started saying, okay, I've got to take a step back and I've got to get some support, some fresh eyeballs that, that are, are, um, not constant startup. And when you think startup mode, you can still be creative. Like when I think it started Mon, I think you're about to go broke. You need to get this done or everything's going to fall apart. Um, and, and that, that was a condition of, of the, of the business in the very early years. But once we pass that, um, I had to reteach myself to, to, to, to rewrite for foundation rewrite to, okay. These people that work here. They have other lives, not lunatics. That's okay. They're doing good work. Let's take a breath. And, you know, just like, and, and really try to focus on, on a healthy output and putting good sprints together. And, um, I had to bring in, uh, I had to bring in other people and other support and help to do that. And, and thankfully we have that now. And, uh, our, our team is much more appreciative of like our, our, our other team members that help us manage and develop our sprints and our, and, and, and, and our roadmap and, and not having to do. What, uh, what, what, what we did at the beginning. Cause at the beginning it was a lot of pressure, but you kind of have to, right. Everybody's got the curve, right. Either. You've got the curve of, oh my God, everything's great. And then there's bumps and bruises or you have the curve of ah, I'm pushing, pushing, pushing, and then you hope and you go, okay, we don't have to push that hard. Let's enjoy putting good, healthy, healthy Workday in. [00:13:55] Yeah. Do you usually put good, healthy work days in, or are you, uh, going full 80 plus more hours a week? Um, as the founder CEO. Amy Tom: [00:14:09] I saw to answer that I don't have a usual of anything. I'm, I'm more, I'm more usual now, right? Because there's always another project to tackle. There's always, there's always that the same type of intensive. Michael Brooks: No, but I'm always thinking, but it's, it's a loving at this point. It really is. And it's it's uh, well, let's think through this, let's map this out. Um, but I've, I've kind of put my life into different categories, majors and minors. Right. So I've got to the like, uh, I I've, I I've started to do more work, but not necessarily. In the business, more on the business and just on, on the architecture of my life so that I can be better for the business because who I am now or who I was seven years ago is not healthy to the business or the rest of my life for now. Right. So I'm looking at it going okay. What's what's important, right? Go Lance. Uh, my family, my household. Okay. Let's make those, my two primary. And then I have three more, two majors and I've got three minors and I put the miners are, um, uh, other, other little projects within, within the, within go Lance itself. So I've got two projects within Gilda aunts that I'm working on that are my minors. And then, uh, and then my health is one, one of my minors. Maybe the health should be a major right now and look at it. I'm in pretty decent. I got the Peloton going. So, um, but you can't, you can't really have to, you can't have more than, than, than two major things that you're working on. Um, and then three minor things that you're working, you know, uh, at least for me, That's and that's a result of, of business coaching. That is when things took a massive turn for the better. When I started to seek actual, not, not mentorship, I don't really like that word. But, but real genuine business coaching. That's when that's, when everything really started to turn and, and I've been able to take the chaos, uh, and instead of just constantly working and moving and pushing things forward and dealing with issues, being able to really hone in focus and I'd never done it before ever. I've done courses and, um, like life development courses, I found those and I've got back in coach. But never specifically. Okay. Let me, let me deal with organizing and fine tuning my business life. And I've got one of the best coaches in the world, and I have a call with him once. It's actually Jerrick, Jerrick Robbins. He's a famous business coach. He's Tony Robbins' son. So his dad. [00:17:00] Yes, yes. Yes. All right. Cool, cool. Amy Tom: [00:17:02] But, uh, that that's who kind of developed this, this mentality, this, this roadmap for me. And I it's, I will say, as, as an entrepreneur, Sometimes we don't have people to report to, you just go to work unless you're raising capital and you're getting VC money. Michael Brooks: And you have the investors going here's these numbers you have to hit and you go back and report, which is really nice. Right. You know what you need to do. I mean, waking up and there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there that wake up and they are, I don't know what to do. And sometimes it becomes paralyzing. It's a paralyzing feeling going, what do I do next? How do I make this next decision? And. Being able to find somebody in that category of your life. Just saying, dude, I need somebody who I can trust that I can ask and get the bounce, these ideas off of who can help me ask me the right questions to get to the right answers that is paramount [00:17:59] for sure, definitely. Uh, I wanted to ask you about going back to the number of hours you work, um, a week, kind of the idea of the fact that because you are the founder and CEO, nobody is going to work as hard as you, no one is going to care about your business as much as you do. So, especially with a remote team, how do you keep all of your people engaged in the dream and continuing working and motivated, um, when you might not be able to see them physically in person. Amy Tom: [00:18:38] So I, I would have to disagree with the premise and it's not something that. That and that's based out of wisdom, not excuse me. Based out of experience, not wisdom. I thought that to be true. Right. Nobody's going to care about it. Like. But it's not true. It, it it's, it's not true. We we've been blessed with amazing people that cared just as much as I do. Michael Brooks: And sometimes I've seen them care more and, and watching other people take on these immured these roles and step in and really jump, jumping in and, and take care of business and in a way that. It recently, it was very, it became very apparent to me recently when I got, uh, I got pneumonia in November and pneumonia, and I think COVID, I don't know I was at home and everybody said it was COVID, but I was like death. I couldn't stand in the shower for more than three minutes. Like I was, might've been. Uh, I lost like 20 pounds, which was nice. So, [00:19:37] you know, there's always a silver lining, Amy Tom: [00:19:42] but, um, but being able to, to be that sick where I could do just minor, like basic check-ins could barely keep my eyes open, making sure that the health of the business was okay doing the absolute bare minimum that I needed to do. And then watching the business grow better. Then whether or not I was, there was, uh, was a little humbling and it, it was, uh, I came out of that. Michael Brooks: Of that, um, sickness and, and feeling like, well, okay. Like, I feel like, you know, I you're so close, you do care, right? It's like, say nobody will care about your child as much as you do into a degree. That's true. But children get married and they have kids and then their kids love. Like this, this is the type of these things happen. And then like, there's, there's one way to, to, to look at remote businesses and freelancers it's it's. How well do you share the appreciation? Right. And that's, uh, that, that can be in many ways that can be in public accolades. Right. Which are huge. Um, but it, it can be in bonuses, you know, Hey, we had a good, we had a good quarter. Here you go. Or it can be done in. In, in things like stock options and that type of stuff. And that's something that we're breaking barriers with now, and we never needed to like this isn't something that was mostly startups, do that to, to acquire and get and maintain good talent. Now we are actively taking a role in actively developing an option plan for our freelancers that live everywhere in the world. Right. You bill in Belarus. You know, if, if, if we have an event that is, uh, uh, like a liquidity event or a public or a public event or whatever, they get to share in that. And that's huge. That's a, that's a huge benefit and they see. But I don't see them. It's not affecting their work at all, but it's more of an appreciation of saying, Hey, this is part of the, the culture. And I guess that's the word I was looking for for, and it's something we focus on, you know, how do you get somebody to care as much as you do, care about them, care about the people that you're working with and they'll care. And they'll, they'll they'll care about the work they do. There's the old, uh, there's the old, uh, what's his, I think Teddy Roosevelt said, people don't care how much, you know, until they know how much you care. And there's, there's things that we've been able to do. We've been able to help people, and support, support people and, and, and ways. And, and I, I, I spent a lot of time with my daughter. She's 11, she's very business interested. And, uh, I said, look you out, you always have to take care of the people that take care of you. And, and, and, uh, that's that translates and family as well as business. So if you care about the people that you work with and they understand that, and they appreciate that, they'll care about the work they do. [00:22:50] Yeah, definitely. So, regular listeners of the podcast will maybe know that hacker noon is a fully remote company. Amy Tom: We have people all over the world. And so I'm so lucky to work with people from many different countries. But something you said about, having someone from Belarus. Struck something with me in the thought that, do you think that when you go to hire freelancers, especially people from wherever that there's ever too much of a mish-mash of culture, or do you buy more into the idea of, the more diverse that you have the better for your team? [00:23:31] Um, so I can agree with both. Yeah. That there, there is definitely a mishmash of culture. But it all comes down to respect. Right. And, and openness, and, and, but I I've seen certain cultures in certain parts of the world that are very passion-driven, and, you know, be respectful of that. And then I've seen cultures that are very logical and methodical. Michael Brooks: And you're respectful of that. So, I'm a big fan that I find that if you can tap into diversity of, of ideas, right? Diversity of ideas typically come with diversity of people. You can, you can tap into that really entrepreneurial mindset of the people you work with. Even the freelancers you work with. Like that's very, it's, it's, it's a very entrepreneurial, venture to be a freelancer. So like it's a solo opener or what have you, but, often there's an insight that if you're open to. And respectful of the culture you can, you can draw out and it'll, it'll give you an advantage. It'll it'll help you develop and help you grow. Um, it can, it can, uh, yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm agreeing. There is challenges with that. But people sometimes from different cultures get offended by different things. And, but that's where the culture of the company, the culture of the business that you're working in, that's where that takes. So. Right. So if you have, so there's the culture of this person over here, and there's a culture of this person over here, but then there's the culture of the business where they meet up. Yeah. So you bring people out of their cultures and you bring them into your culture and they bring their culture to the business culture. And if the business culture is one of openness and respect and, and uh, then, then, then you have, uh, then, then, then you have the opportunity to make something beautiful. [00:25:43] And I think it really is beautiful. I I'm just thinking of a time that comes to mind when I'm working with people, uh, somebody who was from, um, Eastern Europe and I'm from Canada. And so those cultures are very different and it's like the blendedness the Eastern European ness of it. Like the way they communicate. Amy Tom: I love it. I love it so much because it's, so I know that it's that culture difference. Offended. And I rely on, like you said, that culture of the company where we don't take ourselves so seriously and everything is kind of fun and a little bit of a joke. And that, I think it's so funny because it's just very different to what I'm used to. So I love that. Um, so when you a hire different people from different places, and maybe this has to do with go Lance, and you can let me know a little bit more about this, but how do you navigate the, uh, rules and regulations from like different countries when you're just trying to find the best talent, regardless of their location, [00:26:53] the rules and regulations to hiring Michael Brooks: [00:26:55] of like paying people, I guess. Amy Tom: [00:26:58] Yeah. So payment flexibility is, is one of our echo lands. One of our biggest strong suits. Um, there's things like that and things that you have to deal with and you, you bend to the compliancies of, of each, each region, um, when we categorize everybody as a freelancer. So it's not like they're full-time employees in, in these, these regions. Michael Brooks: So, um, we have a little bit more flexibility. Um, so it's, we, we, we find it pretty easy to navigate that. And, and honestly, it's, it's just the least fun thing that I have to deal with. So I just hired somebody. And I got here. And, uh, and, and I mean, I think that he may be, and I've asked him, I was like, what, what's wrong with you? Why would you like this? Why, why would you choose this knob that did somebody hurt you as a child? No, I just, I love getting through these little compliance issues and figuring this out and enable it, you know, I okay, great. Cool. I never, never want to have to ever do that. So, um, [00:28:06] yes, maybe this just goes to show that there really is a perfect person for the job somewhere out there. Amy Tom: You just have to go find them, [00:28:16] somebody for everybody, maybe there's somebody for. Michael Brooks: [00:28:20] Yeah, maybe. Okay, cool. So when you, it was 2008 and you're going through the financial crisis and you've founded and you're working on your companies, um, and this need for a greater work, flexibility arises. And then we fast forward to 2020 and to you and another need for greater work, flexibility arises. Amy Tom: What did that look like? [00:28:49] Well, the whole pandemic has been very upsetting for me. I mean, we are, our revenues grew, everything grew, but I liked having that competitive edge for me. I was constantly selling, Hey, here's why here's the value of remote work. Here's the power of what you can do with them. And now everybody knows about it and it's like, we're new. Michael Brooks: And then I'm like, well, all right. Like I felt special. I felt like I had something and it was excited. People really have any, you don't have any employees, you just work all remote and like, yeah. Yeah, everybody works remote. Everybody's a freelancer, everybody clocks in, clocks out whenever they want to. That's how, that's, how it works. Or, um, and that was, uh, that was like something special. So it's, uh, now, now everybody does it now. It's like, [00:29:34] Oh, well, okay. You know, everybody's doing it, but not everybody's doing it well for sure. So you still have a leg up. Amy Tom: [00:29:43] Okay. Well then that goes to culture. So that's, and that's what I, I wrote a, I wrote my third book about, which is, um, Remote it a winning with freelancing and it's, it's almost entirely about culture and how you create a remote work culture. Michael Brooks: I mean, it, it is tough, right? Throwing a job to the other side of the world and saying, please, please do the good work, please. Don't just. And so we built the time tracking tools and all the, all the, you know, the work diary and you can measure results and measure how much each thing is cost. And that's great for that's great for measurement. It's great for course, correction, but, um, you find that there is good people all over the world. And you could be just as hurt by somebody in the office as you can by somebody in the other side of the world. So of course you have to take the appropriate security measures, right? That's that's a given. Um, but you also have to have some, some faith and some trust and it, it, it was a leap of faith. I mean, I had a subscription billing company and I'm hiring a guy five hours outside of Moscow and I'm going anything have we're PCI compliant. And like, are they happy? See, I can find it's in Russia. Oh, okay. And it wasn't until I started going to these countries and meeting with people, which was awesome. So if you'd like to travel yeah. Then you, then it's, it's like doing these little, these little setups I actually got, um, I couldn't go, I don't know if I still can. I got kicked out of Belarus. So I flew from Baylor. From mince, Baylor, reus to Moscow. And I had visas for both country, but apparently according to the law there, you have to leave the country and then, and then go to Russia because there they're open borders between the two of them, like anyone would notice, right. Like, oh, and they didn't tell me that they just detained me and then put me in a room and they're like, yeah, you got to leave. I'm like, yeah. Can I go downstairs? Just buy a ticket. They're like, no, no, you can't leave this room until you have a ticket. I'm like, oh, I called one of my freelancers and I'm like, dude, you, you gotta get me outta here. So you drove down to the airport, bought me a ticket. Oh man walked in the room. They're like, all right, you're leaving. And, uh, anyway, so they had like four guards escort me to like, I'm this big, terrible person playing. I'm like, okay, well I'm just, uh, okay, sorry. And they didn't tell me what I did wrong either. I had to like hire a lawyer to go and find out, um, I flew from one country to another. So maybe that was my big mistake, but I couldn't go to Baylor roofs. And I used to go often because we have a lot of people we work with there and we have a lot of people, other areas of Eastern Europe. So I've kind of go make the rounds. Um, so I rented a place in Lithuania, a giant, like a giant farm, um, a giant house. And then I got a bus and brought everybody I worked with out there. And so that was like a really fun, cool cultural event. I do think that if you can meet up with people right there, let them fly to you five to them. It's it's so, so worth it, but there are people that I have worked with for years that I love like a brother. But I've never actually shook in their hand. I've never got to sit down and have coffee or tea or a meal with them and that's, um, that's, it's, it's impactful, but I, um, it's on the books. I mean, it's, it's like, okay, if there wasn't COVID I, I would, I used to travel a lot more. Um, but now it's, it's, it's become a lot more difficult, but, uh, yeah. That's [00:33:37] okay. I feel the exact same way. I want to meet everybody that I work with. Uh, so desperately that I traveled to Serbia earlier this year, I am triple VAX and I did everything that I needed to do, but I went to Serbia this year to small town, Serbia to meet. Uh, the other hacker noon employee is because I really just wanted to meet her in person and it was delightful. Amy Tom: And again, like the culture is so different. It's so much fun. We drank a Brandy in the morning because that's what you do in Serbia apparently to increase your blood flow. And so every morning I wake up, I open my laptop, have my little shot of Brandy and we're ready to go, just work in. And it was great. [00:34:25] Yeah, Michael Brooks: [00:34:29] Nope. Just a little shot or Brandy, a little sip while it's like having a morning coffee except Brandy. And that's how we worked all day and it was great. So yeah, I love the remote life and it just opens up so many fun, new opportunities. It's Amy Tom: [00:34:49] crazy. And how, how cool is that? Do you get to experience these other cultures? Michael Brooks: Yeah. I don't think you really understand a culture until you've worked with the co with people in the culture. It used to be, you don't understand the culture until you've gone somewhere and worked there and then you really, or, or, or maybe D. Understand things that way, but now you get kind of a taste of it. You get like a, like a vibe while you're working remotely and then you go there. All right. Brandy in the morning. Okay. Gotcha. Right. Are you still doing the Brandy in the morning? [00:35:26] Unfortunately, I've moved back to coffee, but I should probably give it a go again. I was vibing with it. It was. Amy Tom: All right. Awesome, Michael. Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. I love the remote work life, um, and I hope that this is here to stay forever. Um, if we want to find you and what you're working on online, where can we look? [00:35:54] Uh, Uh, that's, that's our, that's our website. That's where we, uh, that's where we, uh, that's where we work. Michael Brooks: It goes and sign up account. And if you want to chat with me, just, uh, go on a little chat and say, Hey, I, uh, heard Michael talking with Amy. Here's my email. And then, uh, and I can reach out from there. [00:36:15] All right. Sounds good. I will put that link in the show notes. Thank you very much for listening to this episode of the hacker noon podcast. Amy Tom: And if you liked it, don't forget to share it with all of your friends and give me a cute little five star rating wherever you're listening would really appreciate that. And if you want to find hacker noon, you can go to hacker noon on all of the social channels. Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter. Whatever and visit hacker news.com to read more articles about technology. And until next time stay weird and I'll see you on the internet by. [00:37:02] Yeah. Michael Brooks: