i'm a man i'm a man i'm a video man
Between Two Computer Monitors: This story includes an interview between the writer and guest/interviewee.
these organizations are telling you that
they're building something that could
kill you and something that could remove
all our freedom and
liberty and they're saying it's a good
thing you should back them cuz it's cool
they don't care about the revenue they
have the political power people are
scared of them power should not be
invested in any one individual if I can
accelerate this over the next period I
don't have to make an impact I should
not have any power whereas again you see
everyone else trying to get more and
more
power the only way that you can beat it
to create the standard that represents
humanity is decentralized intelligence
it's collective intelligence the data
sets and Norms from that will be ones
that help children that help people
suffering that reflect our moral
upstanding and the best of us and
gathers the best of us to do
[Music]
it a week ago EOD stock was on my stage
at abundance 360 talking about the
future of open- source ai democratized
decentralized ai the day after a360 he
stepped down as CEO of stability now 5
days later I've sat down with iMat to
talk about why he's stepping down what
he's doing next the future of AI he
takes the gloves off he talks about the
dangers of centralized Ai and the
potential for decentralized democratized
AI to be the only Avenue that truly
uplifts all of humanity all right uh if
you like this episode please subscribe
let's jump in if you're a mood shot
entrepreneur this is an episode you're
not going to want to miss all right now
on to emod good morning emod good to see
you my friend that's as always pizza so
you and I were on stage literally last
week at the 2024 abundance Summit
talking about uh the whole open- Source
AI movement you were beginning to talk
about decentralized AI you talking about
where stability was the speed of the
development of the different uh products
and the day after the abundance Summit
was over uh the news hit that you had
stepped down as CEO of stability and
stepped off the board um so let's begin
with the obvious question uh why what
happened um and I I have huge respect
for you and I know a lot of the issues
in the past but I'd like you to have a
chance to share with entrepreneurs out
there and folks interested in AI exactly
your side of what's
Happening yeah thanks I think that uh
Elon Musk once characterize being a CEO
as uh staring into the abyss and chewing
glass uh because you are looking at a
very uncertain future having to make
decisions and the chewing glass is all
the problems that come to you all the
time and it's required to steer the ship
when things are incredibly be uncertain
and stability it's a pretty unique
company at a unique time like we hired
our first developer and researcher two
years ago and then in those two years we
built the best models of almost every
type except for large language image
audio 3D Etc and had over 300 million
downloads of the various models we
created and supported which was a bit
crazy and then generative AI is crazy in
terms of usually in a startup you don't
have to deal with global leaders and
policy debates about the future of
humanity and AGI and everything else at
the same time with building code yeah at
the same time as building code yes and
um especially be building code a take
fraction of the resources of our
competitors um like we had uh certain
teams who offered triple their entire
packages to move to other companies I
was grateful that only a couple of
researchers before
N I was going to leave left for other
companies and that was just startups no
one left for another big company which I
think is Testament to their kind of
loyalty in the mission but you know what
we've seen over the last year is or last
half year in particular is the question
of governance in AI is something that's
incredibly
important and who manages owns controls
this technology and how is it
distributed so we saw you know
everything from kind of open AI
because we've had this
conversation uh because it was there was
a lot of pressure asking whether for you
to step down as
CEO um and I think Founders typically
want to see themselves or or feel they
need to be the CEO and I I've heard you
say recently you know that you view
yourself more as a founder and
strategist than a CEO is that a fair
assessment yeah I think everyone's got
their own skill sets right so I'm
particular great at taking creatives uh
developers researchers others and
achieving their full potential and
designing systems but I should not be
dealing with you know HR and operations
and business development and other
elements they're far better people than
me to do that so now for example our
most popular thing stable diffusion and
comf UI the system around it is the most
widely used image software models in the
world there are great media CEOs that
can take that and amplify that to make
hundreds of millions of Revenue so
should come in and me on that so why now
pal what is there anything that
specifically tipped for you that has I
mean because you know it has you know
you have done an extraordinary job this
has been your
baby I mean how you have to
feel a a whole slew of emotional
elements and and I've had to step down
as CEO uh on two occasions over the 27
companies
I've had to sell a company for pennies
on the dollar and it takes an emotional
um hardship on you yeah I've um had
calls for me to step down as CEO since
the well since 2022 you know uh but I
always thought you know what's best for
the company in the mission and where I
look at the world right now there's a
few things say the company has momentum
it has spread it's turning into a
business like last year I said let's not
enter into large new contracts because
technology isn't mature yet and our
processes aren't mature yet and you have
to deliver so we did a lot of
experimental things we're setting up and
again now it's ramping on a business
side on a technology side the technology
is maturing diffusion Transformers such
as stable diffusion three and Sora are
going to be the next big thing and again
stability has got a great place there
but I think there's also the macro on
this so if you look at the open aai um
CEO for thing you know Sam mman said the
Bor conf fire anytime this is the
governments of open Ai and then they
fired him and then he is back on and he
appoints himself back on the board
there's clearly no governance opening I
mean I respect the people on the board
greatly you I think there're some great
individuals but who should manage the
technology that drives humanity and
teaches every child and manages our
government who's really leading on that
that can build these models and do those
things as you know I've always wanted to
build the science models and the the
health teams done that I want been doing
the education work and then my concept
of a national model for every country
owned by the people of the country all
tied together I think it needs to be by
a web3 not crypto or necessary token
framework that's something that's a
brand new kind of Challenge and one that
I think there's only a window of a year
or two to do if you have highly capable
models let's put aside AI for now which
you can discuss later really
accelerating then no one will be able to
keep up with that unless you build in a
decentralized manner and distributed
manner for data talents distribution
standards and more so there's only a
small window of time here to do that and
realistically again successful companies
and these things are all great but geni
is a bit bigger than the classical knobs
just like the whole life cycle of the
company was a lot faster than the
classical knobs so that's why I felt you
know now is the right time to make that
change and hopefully play my part in
making sure technology is distributed as
widely as possible and governed properly
as pretty much I think I'm the only real
independent agent that has built
state-of-the-art models in the world
right now yeah we've seen a lot of
turbulence with open AI we just saw
Mustafa um from inflection become part
of Microsoft um and I am curious I mean
you you had a a now famous conversation
with Satia
uh a couple of days after stepping down
um was that investigatory on your part
or was that just a touch base with an
old friend that's just ch trolling
actually you know like to let off some
steam that picture was I think from year
or two year or so ago
okay but you know um I think Sati is an
amazing CEO and uh you know he responds
again like the top CEOs incredibly
quickly when you message um and he's got
a great vision but there is again this
concern about consolidation in Tech we
didn't take money from any trillion
dollar companies at stability you know
we remained and retained full
Independence you know um and you know
the jman of some of the elements that we
could have taken very big checks and
other things um and even though you have
good intention R room that companies are
like slow Dumb AIS that over optimize
the various things that's not certainly
in the best interest of humanity when
you have
infrastructure it's like this is the
airports the railways the roads of the
future AI is an infrastructure G is an
infrastructure but it should be and
should it be Consolidated under the
control of a few private companies with
unclear objective functions again the
people in the companies may be great I
don't think so and this is a key concern
and part of that was that commentary
again he's doing an amazing job he's
consolidating a lot of power for the the
good of the company and also he has a I
think genuinely good heart of Mission to
bring technology to the
world but it is a bit concerning right
especially with the new types of
structure you're speaking of Sam in this
case Satia here oh SAA like like again I
think uh the commentary was always
interesting like you know Satia playing
4D chess you know assembling the AI
Avengers yeah I mean he is he's building
an amazing massive Talent covering the
bases and Microsoft is doing incredibly
well here right if you asked who's doing
gen to people would say Microsoft um but
there is has to be concerns about
consolidation of talent and power and
reach before I get to your vision going
forward because it's so important and
what you're doing next um I just again
as a Founder as a CEO of a moonshot
company we have a lot of those listening
here can I ask how are you feeling right
now because the decision to step down
has to have huge emotional are you
feeling relief are you feeling anxiety
um what's what's the feeling after
making that momentous
decision uh I was a big feeling of
relief um you know
because there's the there's that
Japanese concept of iy I I know iy and I
love it yes yeah do what you good at do
what you like and do what you believe
you're adding value and other people do
too you know like realistically again I
think I was an excellent research leader
strategist other things but I didn't
communicate properly or hire the right
other leaders in certain other areas of
the company and they're better people to
do that and so I wasn't doing what I was
best at a lot or I could have the most
measurable value and it was tying down
you know there's a lot of Legacy you
know technical organizational other debt
especially when you grow so so so fast
and you know we were lucky that we had
high retention in the important areas
and we could execute in spite of all of
that in spite of going the big company
route I think you know moonot Founders
you have to do it because you don't have
the resources at the start and you have
to guide the ship you know as it goes
out from Port but there does come that
transition point there and there is a
competing thing where you typically take
on VC money which has its own objective
function versus your overall mission so
again if you look at the generative AI
world right now how many
credible intelligent independent voices
are there there theyve had the ability
to build models and design things and
make an impact you know there's not many
so I was like that's where I can add my
most leverage and also the design space
is again is unprecedentedly huge because
the entire Market has just been
created like where does geny not fit and
where does it not touch and what needs
to be built there we need to actually
have the agency to go and build that and
so I felt tired relieved um I felt that
now there's a million options I want to
rather than taking a long break get on
with things I've just done the first
thing in kind of web 3 and I've got a
whole bunch of other things we're going
to discuss kind of coming and catalyze
stuff that can make an exponential
benefit because you know like massively
transformative purpose here is I want
every kid to achieve their potential and
give them the tools to do that and and I
love you for that um because you've been
true to that that vision and I know on
the heels of your announcement you've
been reached out to by national leaders
by corporate you know by CEOs and major
investment groups and um you have a lot
of opportunity ahead of you so let's
talk about where you want to go next um
you mentioned publicly and you discussed
on our abundant stage the idea of of uh
democratized and decentralized AI um
let's define that first what is that why
is it important and what do you want to
do there yeah I think that when I said
I'm going to move to do my part in
decentralizing people like isn't that
just open source you give the technology
right and then anyone can use it but it
isn't a decentralizing AI has a few
important components one is availability
and accessibility everyone should be
able to access this technology the foods
the labor and there's some very
interesting political and other elements
around that number two is the governance
of this
technology you have centralized
governance because the models are the
data there's a recent data bricks thing
uh model where they show that you have
massive improvements from data we all
know that you know who governs the data
that teaches your child or manages your
health or runs your
government that's an important question
I think too few are asking and we need
dat transparency and other things like
that um so accessibility you know you've
got the um governance aspect of that and
then finally you have how does it all
come together is it a single package or
is it a modulized
infrastructure that people can build on
and is available kind of everywhere you
know does it require monoliths and
Central servers where if it goes down
and you have an outage on gp4 you're a
bit messed up or someone can attack and
corrupt it I think that those are kind
of the key elements that I was looking
at when I was talking about
decentralizing Ai and you know I've come
up with an infrastructure to do that I
hope um as well so if if you don't mind
let's double click on it even further so
um you mentioned we don't have long to
get there if that's a true statement why
don't we have long to get there and then
what does getting there look like if you
had all the capital available and If the
right national leaders were hearing
about this because a lot of this is
supporting um supporting the populace of
a Nation um to have have ai that serves
them versus uh top down what's it look
like 25 10 years from now yeah I think
you'll have both proprietary and open
source Ai and they'll work in
combination the Practical example I give
is that sayi is like graduates right
very talented slightly of enthusiastic
graduates you got those and
Consultants um but I believe you know on
stage with mat Freedman last week at
a360 when we're there he said it's like
we discovered this New Concept what do
you call it AI Atlantis Atlantis yes yes
with 100 billion graduates that will
work for free yes I love that analogy it
was it was a brilliant analogy yeah we
need to figure out how to say Atlantis
you know um but but there's a few things
here first of all is the defaults you
know once a government Embraces
centralized technology it's very
difficult to decentralize it and every
country needs an AI strategy a year ago
one year ago was GPT 4 yeah crazy how
crazy is that you know at the AI safety
Summit uh in the UK the king of England
came on stage or came via video call and
he said that this is the biggest thing
since fire you know and that was like
what six seven months later where are we
going to be in here yeah I think he took
that from from uh uh from uh uh the
found the CEO of Google um AI is as
powerful as as fire and electricity yeah
yeah yeah I've heard the same from like
Jeff Bezos and a bunch of others you
know uh not Kindle Fire proper fire you
know um but then if you think about it
Norms are going to be set in this next
period like you know I'm in California
La at the moment if you don't set Norms
on rights for actors and the movie
industry then you could have a massive
disruption just occurring as fulllength
Hollywood features come in a year or two
generated you know if you don't have
Norms around open models and earn sh and
governance by the people it'll be top
down governance because governments
can't allow that to be out of control if
they don't have a reasonable
alternative um and I think the window is
only a year or two because every
government must have a strategy by the
end of the year and so I think if you
provide them a good solution that has
this element of democratic governance
and others that will be immensely
beneficial I think also it's urgent
because we have the ability to make a
huge difference you know as we kind of
May probably discuss later having we W
the knowledge of cancer longevity autism
at your fingertips we have the
technology for that right now we have
the technology that no one ever ever
alone again on those things or to give
every child a superior education
literally in a couple of years like
there is an urgency both from there's a
small window but also from we must do
this now because it can scale and make
that impact we have dreamed of for so
long the enabling technology is finally
you know it's finally good enough fast
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listeners all right let's go back to our
episode so the let's talk about the
objective function of democratized and
decentralized AI um is it that the
compute is resident um in countries
around the world is it that the models
are owned by the citizens of the world
is it that data is owned um and how do
you get there from here I think that um
you can think of the supercomputers like
universities M you don't need many
universities honestly if someone's
building good quality models that's one
of the things is iability and we did the
hard task we could have just stuck with
image we said no we're going to have the
best 3D image audio biomedical all these
models and no one else managed that
apart from open AI to Dee in fact I
think we have more modalities than open
AI again kind of want to kind of
describe this is
accessibility and governance and a few
of these other factors so I think what
it means is that this technology is
available to everyone but you see now
that you don't necessarily need giant
supercomputers to even run it you know
we show showed you a language model
running on the laptop stable M2 will run
on a gigabyte on a Mac mare faster than
you can read you know we're writing some
poems ious things you know um we see
stable diffusion now at 300 images a
second on a consumer graphics card our
video model was like 5 gabt of vram this
really changes the equation because in
web 2 all the intelligence was
centralized on these giant servers and
big data now you have big supercomputers
I think you'll need less with better
data training these graduates that can
go out and customized to each country
but they must reflect the culture of
that country like the Japanese stable
diffusion model we had if you typed in
salary man it gave you a very sad person
versus the base model giving you a very
happy person right so you must have
graduates that reflect the local culture
and then reflect the local knowledge and
then Global models again that reflect
our Global Knowledge and can be accessed
by anyone but who decides what goes in
there these are some very important
questions and who vouches for the
quality as well what's your advice to a
a national leader because you know we're
now starting to see Ministers of AI in
different nation states and what what's
your advice to them right now in this
area I think my advice to them would be
to start collecting the data sets that
they would teach a graduate that was
very smart through school and kind of
other things this is National broadcast
data this is the curriculum this is
their accounting legal and others and
note that those data sets are
infrastructured
they will enable the local populace and
others to create these models because
models are just data wrapped in
algorithms with a bit of compute that's
the recipe compute algorithms and data
and it's not going to be as hard as you
think to train these models but you have
to build them to good standards so by
the end of next year probably year after
I would estimate that a l 70b LEL model
or a stable diffusion model so these are
two leading models in image and language
will cost about under $10,000 probably
even $1,000 to train and then it comes
all about the data and then it becomes
about the
standards you know it's it's it's
interesting um there is so much
knowledge in the world that
will vaporize sublimate over the decade
ahead as people die you know uh cultural
data locked up in people's minds and
stories and so forth that's never been
recorded it's an interesting time to
actually capture that data and
permanently store it into uh the
national
models yeah and again I think people
over focus on the models versus the data
sets I mean is data set yeah yeah yeah
with the exponential compute you can
recalibrate and improve the data as well
so right now a lot of the improvements
and models are actually synthetically
improving data and data quality um as
you said there's so much that can be
lost but now we can actually capture
this and the concepts and the other
guidance and have cross checks like you
can deconstruct laws you know you can
translate between contexts you can make
expert information available to everyone
because again you have this new
continent of AI Atlantis and all these
graduates soon to be Specialists that
are on your phone and that's incredibly
democratizing you know um because
otherwise the knowledge is throughout
history knowledge has always been gatee
kept always
I want to get to uh health and education
next but before we go there I know you
were meeting with uh a mutual friend uh
Jules herbach the other day um and uh
and stability announced a deal with otoy
Endeavor and render Network um are you
still an adviser to that Venture yeah no
this is part of the whole thing it's the
first of many web 3 kind of elements
there I think web 3 is 95% % I say 90%
I'll be
generous um speculative and rubbish but
there is that 51% of genuine people that
have been thinking about questions of
governance coordination and others and
have built things that are proper so
ottoy is the bridge to the creative
industry that's why with ar Emanuel and
you Eric Schmidt and others are on the
board um and the render network is a
million gpus largely from creative
professionals that are available and so
the first uh thing I announced there was
the initial 10 million gaps 250 million
of distributed compute to create the
best 3D data sets like at stability we
funded and worked with Allen institution
and others on obverse Excel which was 10
million high quality 3D assets we're
going to a billion distributed you don't
need giant supercomputers but then that
is a community good that is owned by the
people of the network and accessible to
non academic and others as well why
because you need high quality assets to
create better 3D models we have a new 3D
model tripol that can generate a 3D
image from a 2D image in 0.5 seconds and
that 3D model feeds into better 3D
assets and then what does that mean it
means we're heading towards the hollow
deck without the data you're not going
to get there and Jules Jules wants the
hollow deck for sure yeah so you know
Jules and I are on the same page L you
know and you're not going to get there
without again a Commons of data that can
train the graduates that then becomes
specialized with Star Trek or you know
Star Wars or any of these other IPS and
then also setting standards
around monetization IP rights all sorts
of other things um and so a network like
render is really good for that but you
know I've been talking to a lot of
people in web 3 about the different
elements of the stack uh because what I
basically see is that we have the
opportunity to build almost a human
operating system uh models and data sets
for every nation every sect coordinated
through proper web 3 principles again
not speculative tokens or anything like
that you know making it so that every
child in the world or adult can create
anything they can imagine they can be
protected against the harms and they
have access to the right information at
the right time to thrive and again
that's infrastructure for everyone it's
a common good access to gpus has been
sort of The Limited fuel um do you think
decentralized GPU structures like render
is part of that future is an important
part of that future I think so right now
it's far more efficient to train models
on these again big supercomputers the
university but the rate of exponential
growth there again is insan last year to
train llama 2 cost $10 million in a year
it'll cost
$10,000 a, times improvement from
algorithms data super compute
speeds and that's crazy if you think
about it right um so I don't think this
will be the limiting factor I think the
GPU overhang for language models
probably lasts until the end of the year
but then there's plentiful Supply
because what you have is NVIDIA makes
amazing gpus at an 83 or 87% margin
right but the actual calculations aren't
complicated like we took Intel gpus and
we ran the stable diffusion 3 diffusion
transforma training so this is the same
technology that's used in Sora and
stable diffusion 3 is multimodal so it
can train Sora model with enough compute
and I think us and them were the only
people kind of doing this I think M
pixel as well um and then it ran faster
than the Intel gpus than the Nvidia
gpus but we know that it can run even
faster because it's not optimized for
either it's still running fast so what
you'll see is a commoditization of the
hardware once the architectures get
stabilized because gp4 is just a
research artifact St diffusion was just
a research artifact you're not going
engineering phase yet and you've got to
the point whereby this runs on MacBooks
it runs on other things so I think it's
a shortterm phenomenum of the next year
because people were taking a point in
time and extrapolating it without taking
into account efficiencies
optimizations and the fact that models
that work on the edge and can go to your
private data will be more impactful than
generalized intelligence everyone's over
indexing on generalized intelligence and
building AI God
versus Amplified human intelligence
shall we
say before we leave stability it's now
in the hands of uh of the chair and your
uh past CTO what's what do you imagine
the future of stability is going to be
going forward I know that you're not
involved anymore it's under different
leadership and there's a what's your
advice to them or where do you think
they're going to go you know I can get
the very basic advice I didn't want any
conflicts or anything because I'll be
setting up lots of new companies and you
know being a founder and a shareholder
and against ability I'm a Founder
shareholder in fact you're still the
majority shareholder I think as of right
now yeah just about just about yeah that
will change I'm sure money will come in
like we saw Co here yesterday on I think
10 or 20 million of Revenue run rate
they're raising at five billion money
it's plentiful cing yes yeah with the
right leadership I think that um it can
again have an amazing part to play in
media and that's what I've suggested to
it um and again there's a great team
that continues to ship great models so
last week there was an amazing code
model next week amazing language audio
and other models are coming out so you
know you continue shipping and great
products around that too um so that was
kind of my advice to them let's focus on
media and take that forward but you know
I'm not the expert on the business side
of things I did the best I could my
expertise on setting this up and taking
it not to
10 and uh yeah Z 0 to one is is
definitely um a role that that you've
played here and allow it allow someone
else to take it the rest of the way uh
but the area that I know if I actually
there something I wanted to kind of
discuss here I think is quite important
please for again the founders listing
and the new shop
companies um there is an imbalance of
power when you
have very visionary very highly
competent leaders there like what I
found at stability is that everyone
would be waiting for me no matter how
competent because I was the one that
could see around the corners and I was a
bit good at everything even if I hired
people that had built billion dooll
startups or were leaders and research at
Google or kind of whatever um because
you have the outsize thing what kind B
says you have to speak last in some
cases and some people they're meeting CU
otherwise everyone just does everything
you say and they also wait on you now
now what I find and what I told the team
is that you're flat as a power Dynamic
you're all on the same page you're all
kind of relatively equal owners and
it'll be interesting see how it evolves
from that uh given that there's actually
a business and again I think this is
something that you probably had a
challenge with than other Founders here
whereby they put more on your plate
because you are so Visionary and because
you're like up there in the future and
they're always waiting on you so you're
always like well my schedule's
completely packed my schedule now is
actually quite free which is also quite
LS
I've had a chance to speak with you
every day for the last few days so
that's been a pleasure to have extra
time on your schedule you know so so we
we do have a world of uh Visionary
founder-led CEO companies right so
you've got musk and you've got Bezos
historically and you had Steve Jobs and
you have and and that's both powerful
and dangerous the the power is the
ability for that because we don't ever
have a company that is pre-existing a
new CEO comes in has the same um uh both
hutzpah and and also the power of their
of their Vision
um the danger there you're concern
you're saying is not not allowing your
team to step up with their own Vision or
being over overly indexed on your on
your vision yeah I think that that can
be the issue and that's why I wanted
stability to again reach the point of
spread and revenue rate increase and
other things before I did anything um
and I felt again this external pressure
in that if nobody or there's very few
people in the world actually thinking
properly about governance and spread and
others and a very small window giving
the pace of this to make a difference in
the dent I believed I had a reasonable
approach to that but I couldn't while
remaining CEO of this company and again
it's a pretty unique scenario because
you've never seen a sector move this
fast that has such wide reaching human
implications
and regrettably there's too few people I
think with the right alignment and
approach in this area I've been very
disappointed like usually what happens
is you have power maximization equations
and this is what we're seeing from the
industry
consolidation how many people want to
genuinely bring this technology to kids
in Nigeria or to the global south or to
help those leaders build their own
models you know and believe all in a
positive SU game that was actually my
biggest surprise from the discussion
silic Valley almost entirely they all
believe
in uh flat or negative sum you know zero
sum or negative sum things where there
has to be a winner everyone's a winner
in
this and again I was just very
disappointed seeing that I've been
asking you for a while to write and
distribute your vision white paper cuz
I've heard you describe it in detail and
it's brilliant and I still hope that the
world will it soon enough everybody I
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back to our episode before we jump into
into health and education let's talk
about governance a second because we've
seen governance
um complicate this what is the right
governance structure for this super
powerful technology we have
representation of democracy that I think
can be improved by this like I don't
think democracy survives this technology
and it's current for it will either
improve or it will end I don't see
anything else like um yesterday they
what does end what does end mean here a
a benign dictatorship a driven by an AI
Overlord yeah like yesterday there were
was a announcement of an app called Hume
which had emotionally intelligent speech
and it can understand your emotions and
talk with emotion you and I have to
discuss this yes you know where that's
going rightful speech it's incredibly
powerful and governments have a tendency
I mean if Government but but say it say
it here it's important for you to State
what what it means because we've
discussed it but help people here under
be ready for this democracy is is all
about representation and you see the
questions of deep fakes and things
speech is one of the most impactful
elements there but now you can't believe
anything you see here everything so One
path that we have is a 1984 on steroids
panoptica you know where life is
gamified and you listen to whatever the
government says and they're incredibly
convincing and you're happy and you've
always been happy and you've always been
at war with Eurasia you know propaganda
on steroids the other part that you have
is things like like citizen assemblies
consultative democracy the ability to
take right now you can take any of the
bills in Congress and completely
deconstruct them and find what the
motivations are you know you can check
laws against the constitution in a
second seconds this is incredibly
powerful empowering technology from a
democratic perspective so I see two
routes unfortunately because I think
that once the thing goes It goes really
fast centralized government control
increasing because the governments want
to protect themselves as an organization
and you know every party says the other
party is crap we've seen the increasing
polarization in America already and you
know fundamentally come on you can do
better than those two leaders that are
currently competing I'm saying this is
clearly our system is sclorotic across
this like democracy is the worst of all
systems except for everyone else we can
have a better
democracy where it's actually
representative and empowers the people
or we will have the end of democ where
it is a 1984 panopy in my opinion
because the momentum will go there of
course you will start using this
technology you're already seeing it
being used but not at scale and not
intelligently yet which is
scary I I I think we finally have the
technology for a direct uh democracy
versus a representative democracy right
where I can have my my desires directly
represented on any specific law or but I
think the point point you've made before
is that
speech um if you look back to everybody
from Hitler to some of the most
persuasive
politicians um is is a powerful tool and
AI can become the most persuasive
speaker out there it can take anyone's
speech and make it far more persuasive
like I think my voice is a bit whiny I
can remove the wine you know I can go in
a very polish British accent and other
things like that right you know must
fight them on the hills and the harriers
and whatever public speaking makes a big
difference someone took Hitler's
speeches and put them through an AI and
took them into English because when
we're not in the German context and we
listen to them it sounds like he's
shouting like what this crazy thing you
hear him in English it is very different
in his own voice just like someone took
Javier M's one in the United Nations and
put him into English again he sounds a
bit sh shouty but then he sounds very
reable when it's in English and you can
take the phenomes of Obama's best
speeech and a bit of trumpism and a bit
of church chill and you'll have full
modulation wave control over all of this
people are already using this technology
that everyone should have a passcode
with their loved ones because people are
getting calls from their
mother saying help I'm in an emergency I
need to send money right now and you
cannot tell it and it pulls at the
emotional strengths and if you look at
something like us radio and you know one
side of the political divide is taking
over imagine if you're hearing optimized
speech every single
day that will have a huge impact and
then they control the visuals and they
control the other things we're not set
up for defenses yeah if it's if it's
optimized speech for you specifically
for you right for the kids you have the
age group they have where you live your
historical background and so forth and N
of one persuasive speech coming at you
um the brain is not set up for enses
we're not and you know we can take this
as an example of the YouTube algorithm
like YouTube as an organization is not
an evil
organization but it's an organization
optimized for engagement which optimized
for more extreme content so there's some
dark place in YouTube which then
optimize for Isis so Isis video spread
viral I don't know sometimes viral is
good sometimes viral is bad that one was
bad because it was extreme and they
didn't understand why and if you look at
it are two of our largest gen of are
companies are Google and meta and their
business is advertising their business
is manipulation and they are both aoral
companies because why would you expect a
company to have morality our governments
are also aoral and again you can view
these things as slow Dumb AI so you can
see the way they will optimize unless we
do something about it and they will have
full control like again you put on your
Vision Pro headset with your spatial
audio that is full sensory control not
full but you know what I mean a level we
full immersion full immersion full full
immersion and so we have to be aware of
this and there's obviously other tools
that can be Ed like in the wake of the
Arab Spring you know governments
targeted everyone that was in social
media we can do that on a again hyper
personalized basis like we need to set
some defaults and standards here to
protect democracy but again why
democracy
we're not really trying to protect
democracy you know again people have
different definitions that what we're
trying to protect is individual liberty
freedom and
agency education should be about
enhancing the education of every child
is not you know healthc care is sickcare
our government should uplift us but how
many people believe our governments do
that rather than put us down because
they couldn't encapsulate and cater to
the Brilliance of each
individual because they didn't have the
tools until out so that's why I said
which way one man yes which waynet
agency or massive control these are the
two ways do we control the technology or
do these organizations control the
technology that controls us you know
when we were on the stage at at the
abundance Summit we talked about a
future of digital superintelligence
right and a future in which we've got AI
a billion times more capable than a
human which looking at it just from a
ratio of neurons is the ratio of a
hamster to a human um y
uh do you believe that someday we could
have a a benign super intelligence that
is supporting
Humanity yes and I believe that it
should be a collective
intelligence that is made up of
Amplified human intelligence as
amplifying all of us Pilots that contain
our Collective knowledge and culture and
the best of us and data sets that are
built from helping and augmenting US
versus a collected intelligence and AGI
that is topped down and designed to
effectively control us again if you look
at open AI statements on the road AGI
they say this technology will end
democracy end capitalism and maybe kill
us all I don't like that I I remember I
remember seeing that you you you texted
me you said read this does this sound
the same as it does to me yeah so what
i' prefer instead is for this to be
distributed like if you have data sets
from Nations that are built on enhancing
the capability of the nation that
reflect the local cultures and you push
for data transparency on models which I
believe we must have you know especially
language models then you're more likely
to have a positive thing and again the
human Collective can achieve anything
from splitting the atom to go to space
if we put our minds to it but we have
laed in coordination
mechanisms they've not been good enough
so if you create the human Colossus and
every single person has an AI That's
just looking out for them to enhance
their potential and coordination AIS
that is a far more positive view of the
future and that is the AGI that is a
general intelligence that's the hive
mind general intelligence not a b style
hi mind but one that's really thinking
again every child should achieve their
potential versus this embodied concept
of an AGI that's a very Western concept
you see that as well like you know you
look at the Japanese concept of a robot
the robot is your equal and your helper
you look at the Western concept of the
robot it's Terminator and Skynet and all
of that and again I think this is again
where cultural norms become very
interesting and what do we want to build
do we want to build AI God or do we want
to build that AI helper that helps us
and we help it you
know um those listening now I mean you
can see yod's Brilliance and why I'm so
enamored with the way you think about
this because it's there are very few
indviduals who are looking at this from
uh an objective function of what's best
for Humanity what's best for every
nation state uh out there let's talk
about your going forward future um are
you going to build something in the uh
in the decentralized um uh side of of AI
the democrac size of AI is there a
company there or Fund in your future for
that yes so uh you know doing the white
paper finally getting there with a bit
of help from AI uh I I can't I I can't I
can't wait to uh to help uh broadcast
that white paper yeah but look I think
the basic thing is this what I want to
do is set up a AI champion in every
nation with the brightest people of each
Nation working with the organizations of
reach Nation to help guide them through
this next period because there will be
massive job displacement from the
graduates going massive uplifts and
productivity from the technology being
implemented and again that organization
can help govern
and create these data sets and these
models that are so important and I Every
Nation should have that but then I also
believe that every sector should have a
generative AI first infrastructure
company that builds this and helps the
healthcare companies finance companies
and others through that and to
coordinate all of that you need to have
a web3 type protocol what is the
protocol for intelligence so what is a
web what is a web three type protocol
Define that for folks listening again
people talk about web 3 it's not about
the tokens or the coins or anything like
that what about three protocol is is
that everyone should have like AIS first
of all aren't going to have bank
accounts they're going to need some way
to pay each other or exchange value and
again web 3 done a lot of work in that
there needs to be some sort of identity
attribution and other format because
you'll have this Mass influx of
information and so again web three
concepts are very useful there there
needs to be an identity concept because
you'll have real and digital people web
through concepts are very useful there
so data ass estation all these other
things verifiability so when I look at
it if you've got sectorally my plan is
to launch or Mr company for every major
sector and we can talk about health and
education and bring the smartest people
in the world to solve that challenge of
the infastructure for the future Every
Nation but you need to have some sort of
coordinating protocol for all of that
that becomes a standard and that's the
substrate for this Amplified human
collective
intelligence and and is that where you
want to play
and focus your energy next yeah it's
setting up these organizations and
bringing the brightest smartest people
that really want to make a difference
there because there's massive network of
fols in doing this but again I just need
to be the founder and architect I don't
want to run the day-to-day of any of
these things um and then because the the
most scarce Talent there's three types
of capital as I view it there's
Financial Capital human capital and
political capital and in order to affect
a change in the world you actually need
all three but the financial Capital
actually comes with the people capital
and the political capital and the
smartest people in the world in every
sector from Healthcare to education to
finance to
agriculture almost all believe that geni
is the biggest thing they've ever seen
in the last year everyone's asking you
all the smartest people Keo what's next
right and you know many of the smartest
people in the world so I want to create
organization that they can come the
chefs and the cooks the thinkers and the
doers and think what is the future of
Finance that's the future of education
and then the national champions that
should be owned by the people of each
country become the distribution for the
amazing infrastructure that they build
and there's a vice a nice kind of Vice
Versa but then again you need the
coordination function so I'm trying to
bring together people in each of these
and you know there'll be public calls
and things like that to build that
infrastructure the future because as
mentioned AI is an infrastructure where
it should be I maybe it's the rocket
ship of the mind
right I love that I love that analogy my
friend it it it is the most important
infrastructure that Humanity will have
going forward across everything it does
and I look forward to helping you build
it exciting right like again I think one
of the things I got I got lots of
messages they're like I'm so sorry for
your loss it was like my dog died after
I left the CE I was like what is that
you know they're like it's nice it's
nice that people care right but I'm
generally excited kind of about what's
next like you know again it was like
staring into the abyss and chewing glass
every single day and that's not what I'm
best at or where I could have the most
impact but I want it to be a point
whereby if I can accelerate this over
the next period I don't have to make an
impact I should not have any power on
this whereas again you see everyone else
trying to get more and more power I want
to make sure it's set up properly but I
want to give it all away because power
is obligation it's dragging and again it
should not be invested in any one
individual we should not have to rely on
anyone being nice or good or for this
technology I was talking to uh Michael
sailor during the abundance Summit uh
that evening and you know talking about
the fact that because Satoshi uh when he
set it up uh did not retain any power
and did not trade on the founding blocks
and so forth that that's the reason it's
been able to succeed because there
wasn't that centralized power and you
know Bitcoin had been tried he said
Bitcoin had been tried many times before
but because it didn't have that uh
initial anonymity and and the and the
dissolution of founding power that
that's the reason it didn't succeed yeah
I mean again I think you need to have it
accelerate and you see this with
movements right the movement starts but
then it goes once you've got the DNA and
the story there right you know you see
the prophets you see the leaders you see
the others but then it's about setting
the framework correctly and reframing
the concept
this technology is not Beyond look
stability is a company that started two
years ago above a chicken shop in London
right you know my first 20 employees I
went to the job center and I said bring
me people that have overcome adversity
and I will train them young graduates
and six of them are still at stability
you know um like because it was a
program and they're doing things from
cyber security to running super
computers we only had like 16 17 phds
yet we built the state-of-the-art models
in every modality we built mind reading
models like mind ey you know I remember
that contributed to all these things yet
you're told it's impossible to compete
we have shown it's not impossible to
compete that's a reframing the reframing
is data versus models it's you don't
need giant supercomputers for everyone
you just need to have a trusted entity
to build it right yeah you know and so I
hope to kind of convey this and then
figure out this organizational structure
that can proliferate so I can take a
holiday so before go further let's talk
about one area of your next chapter in
life that uh we both have as a passion
uh which is the use of generative Ai and
health it's an area that you've given a
huge amount of thought to uh and I think
uh you're excited about can you share
what your vision is there yeah so I got
into AI 13 years ago gosh I was a
programmer before for 23 years building
L scale systems as a hedge fund manager
and other things when my son was
diagnosed with autism and then I built
an NLP to analyze all the clinical
literature and then looked at
biomolecular pathway analysis of
neurotransmitters gab toate in the brain
to repurpose drugs for him and he went
to Mas school which was great and equals
one and then I was one of I was lead
architect on the one of the co AI
projects of the United Nations La of
Stanford and others and then because I
didn't get the technology I was like oh
we got to build it
ourselves but what is health you know
again I think we've had this discussion
a lot Healthcare is sickcare we don't
have all the information that we should
have at our fingertips Health assumes
ergodicity a thousand tossers of the
coin the same as a coin tossed a
thousand times but we are all individual
and across the world there are amazing
data sets that could be better because
when you write down a clinical trial or
your own kind of experiences you lose so
much information at the same time you
don't have all the information on cancer
autism multiple sceris at your
fingertips and the comprehend
authorative and Upstate way so when I
look at the health operating
system we're going to build a gp4 open
for
cancer and it's going to mean that
nobody is alone again on that journey
and loses that agency because they know
comprehensive Authority update all their
knowledge but AI models today already
outperform human doctors and empathy so
they're not going to be a learn on that
anymore yeah can I just double click on
what you just said because it's really
important I've have so many people
because of my role as chairman of
Fountain life who reach out say I just
got diagnosed with this cancer or my
brother my sister or my wife and and
there is they're left with this
decimating use and they're left Googling
um but a model that's able to have the
most Cutting Edge information and then
incorporate all their medical data and
give them advice in empathic fashion how
far is that see couple of years if we
focus maybe even like next year and
that's amazing because for all of these
topics that again we will have diagnosis
that is superior we will have research
augmentation because again even
researchers don't have all that
knowledge at their fingertips and again
this is public infrastructure and a
public good you know from primary care
all the way through that what is the
open infrastructure of the future where
this technology can come again to your
own data as well you have uh things like
Melody and other things around
homomorphic encryption Federated
learning that were trying to figure out
how to preserve privacy we can run a
language model on a smartphone right now
that can analyze all your data and then
just feedback stuff to a global
Collective but people are people so when
I look at Healthcare I see amazing data
sets that we can activate by taking the
models to the data an infrastructure
that we can build like we had check's
agent with Stanford the top x-ray ad
Radiology model to build good standard
things across the entire gamma of
healthcare so we can actually get to
healthcare versus sit so that we can
make it so that everyone is empowered to
make the best decisions either as
experts or individuals and make it so
nobody is alone again as well as
increasing the data quality that will
then feed better models that will then
save lives save suffering and again
increase our potential like you've got a
longev book behind you right why don't
you have all the latest knowledge of
longevity at your fingertips at gp4
level right now that will happen over
the next year we will launch stable
health or whatever decide to call it and
there will be the smartest people in
each of these areas working on that so
again you never AR like doesn't matter
if you're if you're with100 billion doar
and your kid has autism
ASD there's no cure there's no treatment
there's nothing doesn't matter how rich
you are yet with just a little bit of
effort right now we can build it as an
open infrastructure for the 5% of people
in the world that know someone with
autism the 50% of people in the world
that receive a cancer diagnosis of them
of someone they love and they feel that
loss of agency so we're going to return
agency to humanity that way and again it
needs to be an open infastructure that
they can then access private data sets
and compensate them appropriately so
everyone is incentivized we need that
fast yeah and and that's a beautiful
Vision it is again infrastructure and
one of the things that's so beautiful
about it is guess what all 8 billion
people were all human or all running the
same software and the the the
breakthroughs and the knowledge
accumulated in you know in Kazakhstan is
going to be as useful in Kansas yeah but
this is the thing operating system this
is the biggest upgrade to the human
operating system we can imagine because
we're going from analog to digital text
is black and white whereas this these
models only understand context you know
Daniel canaman just passed you know
amazing kind of guy but you know he did
have this concept of type one type two
thinking and so we had one which is
these big data things that can only
extrapolate but now we have these models
that understand context and so we have
the missing parts of the brain and that
will allow us to extrapolate allow us to
have more rainbows you know have the
context of each individual push
intelligence to the edge and that's why
again there is this imperative to do
this now because there's a window on the
freedom agency democracy side but the
other imperative is no one should have
to suffer as they're suffering
now amazing and how much does actually
need doesn't need that much which is the
really amazing stuff this the total
amount spent in generative I think I
said at the conference is less than the
total amount spent on the Los Angeles
San Francisco
Railway which hasn't even started yet
and and in building stable Health again
if if that's what it's called I mean the
amount of capital required to build that
is di Minimus compared to what spent on
a single human trial of any any drug
yeah it is but then you know you build
it and you get to that 8020 incredibly
quickly that will change hundreds of
millions of lives and that will attract
the smartest people in each of these
areas thinking about what is the open
infrastructure of multiple sclerosis of
longevity of cancer and more but then
you can amp that because the value is so
so huge and you I hope to build a
trusted organization as part of this
whole human operating system upgrade
yeah that's what I want to build I want
to build human Os or at least catalyze
it again I don't want to run or control
own anything I want to check out how to
give back that control because who
should decide what cancer knowledge goes
in there who should decide what
education
ET let's talk about the second half of
your of your vision which is how we
originally met um when you were one of
the winners of the Global Learning X
prize that uh Elon and Tony uh Robbins
had had co-funded your your vision
around education um speak to us about
that yeah you know like we're deploying
it um kind of the windows are kind of
separate but every child my my entire
operating system is like if you think
about things in terms of the rights of
child today they have no agency and so
we must respect their rights climate
everything becomes a lot simpler now
that we have language models on a laptop
like I said you can go to LM studio.
download stable LM and it will run on
your MacBook faster than you can
read it's crazy we could have a gp4
level AI from us or someone else on a
smartphone or a tablet by next year One
Laptop a child was too
early you know now we have this
transformative technology you have an AI
that teaches the child learns from a
child are you visual auditory dyslexic
that's the best data in the world for a
national model but also to teach these
models how to be optimistic how to this
really is this really is uh the young
ladies Illustrated primer this really is
is Neil Stevenson's Vision in that
regard yeah but n shouldn't have had to
find the primer she should have had it
from day one as a human right as a human
right yes our schools education system
our child care mixed with the social
status game mixed with petri dish you
know they teach our kids not to have
agency yes whereas they should be
telling the kids yeah they should be
teaching it's a relic of the Industrial
age where everyone had to be counted and
you can't measure what you can't manage
so you manage the creativity and belief
out of people everyone in the world can
do anything why because even if you
don't have that Talent you can convince
someone else who does have that
talent but they don't believe it so they
can't do it so what happens if we have
an entire nation of children that have
this helper that brings the right
information at the right time and tells
them they can always believe that
supports them entire
world what can't you do you know then
they have all of the councel knowledge
of their fingertips and all of the
engineering knowledge of their
fingertips and it's a constantly
learning adaptive and improving system
again right now almost the entire AGI
and AI debate is about these machine
Gods train on giant supercomputers that
bestow their beneficence down or may
kill us or whatever what about that
human operating system upgrade that is a
decentralized intelligence where that
kid in Mongolia or Malawi or wherever
can make a real difference to humility
some of the contributors to our open
code basis for our models are 15 years
old you they just taught themselves and
just happen to be their Wizards you
don't know in this new age right and
again they should contribute to the
whole because once something goes into
this model of this system and again it
needs the verification and other things
that can be dynamic they can proliferate
to everyone using that system do you
think that once this capability is built
it will run into blocks in different
nations uh or do you imagine that this
will become a again a a human right uh I
and not all n i mean listen there's no
greater gift and no greater asset you
can give to a nation's populist than
intelligence and education but I'm not
sure every national leader wants to see
that that's why I think again there is a
gap here there is a year maybe where you
can go to any national leader and say
I will bring this technology to your
people and I will empower the smart to
your people and I want it to be eared by
the people and what option do they have
this is positive for them what happens
is that a lot of the corruption in the
world is because of local
Maxima you know actually it's weird
because unpredictable corruption is the
worst predictable corruption is a bit
like tax you know there's a good B book
by fusser J at Harvard about this and
then you have taxation kicking at
14% um if you can show them something
bigger and this is clearly big they will
Embrace this technology set new norms
and if you correct the same across all
these countries with talented
individuals in each of those groups and
talented individuals in each of those
sectors with a shared Mission even
though they're separate
organizations that's how you set amazing
standards that's how you build a network
effect and if you tie them all together
with a intelligent protocol and again we
talk about tokens or speculation or
ramps or anything like that but taking
the best of thinking around
coordination that can work that can
break this open you know um
but it's not going to be everywhere and
also when you look at the current debate
the current debate is for example we
can't let China have this
technology and you're like what about
the kids in China like well you know
it's dangerous they can have AGI so
under what circumstance would China ever
have this technology never you know
Pakistan when should they have thech
never that's really what they kind of
saying it's also self-defeating because
China has 100 million people they can
use to create data sets and two x of lot
superc computers let's put side again
it's a very Western oriented debate
whereas actually if you go to these
countries and you talk to the leaders
and the family offices that have power
and the people they will lead frog in
the global South to a intelligence
augmentation like they let frog to
mobile they want to embrace this
technology and again you can set Norms
Now versus what's going to happen is you
know they will get a centralized
solution they'll adopt that instead if
you don't right now for hundreds of
millions billions of people
that's why I think again it's a
Crossroads um is there anybody else
working towards this position that you
know of no in the in the large AI yeah
no certainly no credibility and again
that's why I had to build these models
you know and I had to kind of do this
everyone's working on Tiny parts of this
but they're expecting emergence build it
and somehow it will spread and again
this is why I found it passing in the
web 3 Community there are good people in
there and I hope to be able to unite
them just like hope to unite the people
in health and others again Peter you've
seen people working on Tiny parts of
this but this isn't a Manhattan Project
where we're facing an enemy unless the
enemy is ourselves you know but this
does require this big Global coordinated
push and that's why I've tried to design
this system that I believe will work
because it's all about the talent and it
is multiplicative is the race against
uh overly powerful centralized AI
systems that achieve some version of AGI
is that what we're racing
against yeah again we're racing against
ourselves like um humans could scale
through stories you have organizations
you know come and join abundance come
and go to Oxford come and do this but
then when we scaled through text text
was a lossy information format and
there's this poem by Ginsburg how about
this carthaginian demon of disort of Moc
that comes in Mallet comes in through
the data loss our organizations are slow
Dum AIS but now what's happening is
they're configuring to achieve their
thing of getting more and more power
again corporations are technically a
people under law but they're not fully
formed people they eat our hopes and
dreams so I believe the competition here
is against those organizations
consolidating too much power and
creating Norms that are almost
impossible to break so we're almost
competing against ourselves and again
the question is this do you believe it
amp ifed human intelligence or do you
believe in artificial general
intelligence do you believe in
collective intelligence or do you
believe in collected
intelligence who decides is this
infrastructure or is this a product
like so it's not like a Manhattan
Project against you know the Soviets or
anything like that but it this is
require us all to come together or at
least the smartest people in each of
these areas from coordination to
governance systems to healthcare to
education with a blank slate of how do
we upgrade the human operating system
the time is now it's our last chance to
do it and I and I I love you for it
because I think you're you're right you
were there when Elon beamed in on x x
video over
starlink from his airplane which is
which was a fun moment and we were
talking about uh the rate of growth and
his his statement um cu you know Rick
herw was there talking about his still
his prediction of AGI by 2029 and Ray
and and Elon saying we'll have AGI
whatever that means by next year and and
the intelligence of the entire Human
Race by 2029 so I I am I am curious what
just to close out what you think about
that those timelines and that potential
for a super intelligent uh AI system
that is centralized because that's the
people who are building that level of
Power are building centralized systems
they're building centralized single
systems that again take our collective
intelligence like all of YouTube In the
case of open AI clearly and other things
and they package it up sell it back to
us but they don't give they don't
care you know these organizations are
trying to build a system that will take
away our freedom Liberty and potentially
kill us all let's be kind of fair about
that direct and sell it to us uh on an
incremental basis the selling to us is a
complete Canad they don't care about the
revenue of this again let's kind call a
spade a spade they are telling you that
they're building something that could
kill you and something that could remove
all our freedom and liberty and they're
saying it's a good thing you should back
them because it's cool it's not it's
actually shameful if you think about it
and we should not stand for it anymore
this another reason I want to step aside
to see because you can't say things like
that I got canceled Sil Valley so many
times but realistically it's ridiculous
and it should not be stood
for but they're going to do it anyway
because they have the political power
people are scared of
them so there has to be an alternative
and the alternative has to be
distributed intelligence when I resigned
I said you can't beat centralized
intelligence with centralized
intelligence you're not going to beat it
with a stability this is a great
organization it's going to do well the
only way that you can beat it to create
the standard that represents humanity is
decentralizing intelligence it's
collective intelligence and the data
sets and Norms from that will be ones
that help children that help s people
suffering that reflect our moral
upstanding and the best of us and
gathers the best of us to do it because
if you work in healthcare if you work in
education if you work in finance if you
work in any of these things there's no
Organization for you to come and join or
partner with on this there's no kind of
centralized Mission I have looked I've
want to help other people I don't want
to do this myself and I don't want it to
be about me very very quickly which is
why I'm kind of getting it out there now
I hope I can capitalize something that
then people will take forward and time
is now for that because AGI when it
comes if it comes again there's various
definitions of this why on Earth do you
need any knowledge workers anything that
can be done via a laptop doesn't need
humans and so you have concepts of Ubi
here you have concept I think when the
AJ comes you don't need money money is a
common story as a common good we HD
towards a post capitalist Society yeah
yeah I think the example I think you
said was uh Star Trek versus Mad Max you
know I'm like Star Trek versus Star Wars
I think is AIT a better
one you know and so you got the Sith
Lords and all of that um but again if
you kind of look at this I don't think
we need money like it's cross contextual
like bartering with our AI systems
representing us or it's you don't need
money because you're told what to do
again our governments the definition of
a government is the entity with Monopoly
on political violence and an AGI can
overtake any government that can then
control the
people because again listen to it
whispering look at the kind of human
thing so we have this opportunity to set
Norms right now the way that the big
labs are going to AGI is likely to kill
us all Elon and I signed that six-month
pause letter because even though people
like emad you're an accelerationist you
put all this open source AI out you have
to think about the other and who's
involved in that discussion and again if
we build an AGI as a centralized thing
is Windows or Linux safer as
infrastructure our entire internet
infrastructure is built on open open can
be challenged open can be
augmented a monolith is like to be crazy
and the way that I put this is you and I
both know so many
Geniuses you know side effect of Genius
is insanity honestly we're not ment
Geniuses are not mentally
stable why would you expect an AGI to be
so and you're putting all your EGS in
one basket versus creating a complex
hierarchical system that is a hive mind
that's intelligence that represents us
all we should be working towards
building that because it's safer it's
better it achieves all the benefits that
people are talking about and it's
possible today do you think Elon shares
in this vision of a de centralized AI do
you think he would play in that area and
do you think any of the national leaders
that you've been speaking to would
support that kind of a vision as
well um yeah I can't speak veryy long
I'll speak to him and see what he thinks
and I'll get back to you you know he
always says what he thinks um but you
know he's immensely concerned he was one
of the leaders in this area saying
originally why Google you know now why
Microsoft open AI like it can't be
centralized but it's difficult this is a
difficult question how many people have
a feasible solution or you even thought
about this properly you and I both know
just not many and that's very sad should
be everyone thinking about this
on the leader side all the leaders I've
met are super happy you know because
they again leaders want Power they want
control and all of this but genely like
they want to see
abundance they're not happy with where
their countries are and embracing this
technology they know that they can leap
ahead and you know they will still have
a say in all of this it's not like it's
kicking them out or removing them there
were still various kind of mechanisms
there and ultimately improving the
health education and capability of your
people is not a bad thing I mean like
obviously I haven't talked to the
completely oppressive leaders you know
maybe that'll be an interesting thing
but honestly I don't want to even be
talking to leaders I want to create
again a system the people of the country
coming together with the franchise
system can then build this technology
for the good of their people in the open
and not be reliant on anyone politically
or any other type of thing like that we
don't need giant super computers for
where we're going we need
coordination need a few giant super
computers yeah what's your timeline for
putting out this white
paper I'm working as hard as I can you
know put it together I've held I've held
I've held you to this a number of times
I've said get the vision out there it's
it's getting though we're about to go
off this call to a 4our session to
dictate all the various bits and pieces
and again it was impossible when I was a
CEO of stability there was always
another fire there was always another
thing I didn't have time to think you
know and I hope people can take that
white paper and make it better I I don't
have all the answers I'm just trying to
Capal something man I think after I
heard you Ste down I wrote you a text
saying
congratulations yeah exactly not
commiserations time time to time to feel
Unleashed yeah um yeah uh Imad thank you
my friend uh thank you for sharing uh
where you are what led up to this where
you're going next and uh and really
pulling the gloves off on discussing the
idea of centralized um closed AI system
s and their dangers uh and the
importance of of the vision that you
portrayed because I'm I'm fully
supportive and full believe that what
you laid out um is probably one of the
most sane visions of AI in the future
that I've
heard I hope other people agree you know
and they can take it Forward other real
heroes thank you thank you
pal
Dezentrale KI-Diskussion: Interview mit Emad Mostaque wenige Tage nach seinem Rücktritt als Stabilitäts-CEO | HackerNoon
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