The HackerNoon Podcast: Let's Talk About Sec, Baby

Listen to The HackerNoon Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

In the age of extreme personalization, how can you remain safe and secure online? 😭 Amy Tom talks to Jeff Morris, VP of Product & Solutions Marketing at Couchbase, and Mike Schwartz, Founder & CEO of Gluu. Mike is an expert in authentication and application security and Jeff brings his expertise on solutions marketing and tech trends. The trio discuss the rise of extreme personalization, collecting data to meet consumer expectations, and improving the experience for the user - all through the lens of a security mindset. 🕵️

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc6z5csX16w

In this episode, Amy chats to Jeff Morris and Mike Schwartz about:

The first instances of extreme digital personalization showed up in the 90s (04:20)"With personalization comes more and more demand for concurrency", says Mike 🧠 (08:52)
What's the "front door" experience like online today? (12:53)
What's the deal with CAPTCHA and the anxiety that comes with selecting all the traffic lights? ☠️(15:55)
The rise of smart environments to create better user experiences (22:49)
In the age of extreme personalization, how can my data and I remain safe? 🔒 (26:47)
Google Maps and your location information - how accurate is accurate? "The value of location data is very high", says Jeff 📍 (30:30)

Connect with Jeff and Mike:

You can connect with Jeff on LinkedIn
You can connect with Mike on LinkedIn
Follow Mike's podcast - opensourceunderdogs.com

Shownotes:

You can learn more about Couchbase at https://www.couchbase.com/
You can learn more about Gluu at https://gluu.org/
Become a Hacker Noon contributor https://app.hackernoon.com/new

Podcast Transcript (Machine-Generated, Please Excuse The Errors)

Amy: [00:00:00] you guys. I have a vaccine update. I did it. I got it. It wasn't that bad. So for everyone who has a needle anxiety like me, just look away and it was fine. And then my arm hurt for a little bit and it was great. But 10 out of 10 recommend can definitely get that vaccine. It's not that bad.

I was freaking out for nothing, but anyways, of course, this is the hacker noon podcast. And my name is Amy Tom. Today. I am joined by Jeff, who is the VP of product and solution marketing at Couchbase and by Mike, who is the founder and CEO of glue, which is a security software company. So thank you guys so much for joining me today, Mike, how are you doing

Guest: [00:00:48] great, Amy.

Thanks for having me on the show.

Amy: [00:00:51] And Jeff, welcome to the show. This is your first episode as well, even though we've had a few Couchbase guests in the past couple of weeks. And, but what I want to talk to you guys today about today is about digital identity and extreme personalization and how we can protect our digital identities while still receiving extreme personalization.

Extremely personalized messages. So Jeff, could you explain to me what extreme personalization is to start with?

Jeff: [00:01:22] Sure. So I think it's ultimately the application. Yeah. Design practice of, building a, an application in across all kinds of different industries that is blending together people and the products and the services or activities that that they're performing in their digital lives.

So it could be a we have examples of booking travel. And so I am a member of multiple loyalty programs. Those are actually personalization programs. I actually have, while I'm browsing for my trip, I have, time sensitivity to associated with when I want to go and what I want to come back, that kind of information is also, personalization profile kinds of information.

And then there's, the storing in my loyalty profile. I like the IOC, and I like to give my wife the the window seat. Matching. Th my particular preferences of things that are collected about me. And that does happen very regularly to this vast array of product services, activity, catalogs that we're all using and interacting with all the time.

That's a challenge for application developers right now, and it's going to be continuing to be a challenge. As we only become more and more mobile. We only become more and more, both. Sensitive to information we want to track congratulations on getting your vaccine. That's a, that's a great thing.

And it's very likely going, you're going to be asked that at some point in time later in order to get into a venue or to get into a a congregation space. We're seeing that, just that kind of information, plus, this the ability to know when I'm passing through or what room I'm in, in my house, there's a. Amazon sidewalk kind of application is going to end up it is, I came to these kinds of hyper personalized sets of environments and, they create a really great user experience, no doubt. I've got countless customers who are doing this solely to.

Deliver me the kind of experience I want. I've got a cruise lines that are, that they characterize themselves as the largest experienced enterprise in the in the world. And it's all about trying to, anticipate your wants and needs before you even ask and know new concierge level kinds of capabilities, wherever you go.

But this is going to trickle down, not from big it budgets, but down to, knowing what my my breakfast preferences, when I go to my local dining room, that's going to happen too. So even though it's that range.

Amy: [00:03:41] Jeff. My question for you then is how long have you been the VP of product and solutions marketing?

We're taking a quick left turn, a quick lifter,

Jeff: [00:03:51] At Couchbase I've done this for about a year and a half at other employers. I've either run marketing departments or been in charge of product marketing for more than 20 years.

Amy: [00:04:00] Okay. Okay. And so my question then is when did you see the start of extreme personalization?

Jeff: [00:04:06] I think I was talking about it and recognizing that this is a a regular behavior jeez dating as far back as let's say 19, the 1990s the first instance of it being my own, security paranoia of getting a fast track. And knowing that the, the fast track toll, toll taking device, which, I live in the bay area.

I go over the golden gate bridge all the time. It's automated the payment process, which that's convenient. I like that's personalization. But what I also didn't like was the security implications of knowing where I was going, how fast I was going and, and. Clocking the timing distances.

So I was really reticent to to be adopting the fast track thing until the convenience of not having to stop at the toll booth, outweighed my paranoia of, getting a speeding ticket sometime in the future or getting my insurance rates going up sometime in the future. So I that, that was one of the early earliest instances of when I was recognizing, all right, this is happening to me, regardless of whether I opt into it or not in many cases.

And ultimately for that, that service, I was forced to opt into it. But I like the convenience now. But that it dates back quite some time.

Amy: [00:05:17] Yeah. Cause I was thinking that with extreme personalization, it's something that. Dates back for sure. But has really ramped up in the digital age of data collection, would you say?

Cause definitely more people in the 21st century and like more recently in the past few years even have moved to this. Expectation of having that extremely personalized relationship with brands where they are able to build off your example, say they know where, when I'm going to go on vacation, they know that I'm interested in tropical destinations, they know whatever.

And so that experience as a brand takes you to the next level, but then we get into this. As you said, the security implications of knowing all of that information. And so that's where I want to flip over to you, Mike, on the security implications of having a digital identity and what that entails, because with this extreme rise of extreme personalization and everybody collecting my data, how can I protect my digital identity?

Guest: [00:06:23] Yeah, that's a good question. It seems like the system is I think you have to separate security and privacy here. And cause a lot of what we're talking about is really probably the privacy of it. Who gets to see my information and do I get some consent in that process?

And it's, I think we're at a time where the technology has leapt ahead of our ability to actually make roles always talk about tools and rules and, w. Jeff and I are very much on the tool side, writing software to enable companies to implement digital identity and digital experiences.

But the rural side of this is okay. Do I have a right to control the use of my personal data or do I have a right to update that data? And do I have a right to control who to share that information with? I feel like our rules and our laws are behind.

So not that I'm pessimistic on this area, but but I think that, what we see in the enterprise space is that customers really want it. Like you said, you're expecting this experience. And and I do think it can be a competitive advantage to companies who can use this technology well and who can also if they can figure out how to make you part of the process and empower you to control your data.

I do think that's a competitive advantage to them.

Amy: [00:07:43] But when we have this extreme personalization, like coming into the front door, how has online authentication evolved as we are getting more into extreme personalization?

Guest: [00:07:56] Yeah. We see it as a big challenge for companies.

So the front door is basically, you authenticate, everybody's familiar with putting in a username and password, but we don't think about what happens after that. And this is really why, where we've been collaborating with Couchbase. Is that so after the the authentication of course has happened fast, nobody wants to wait around for that, but.

As you're traversing a website or your mobile app is calling API APIs and doing all this stuff for you on the back end, or you're walking around on that cruise ship and your IOT devices interacting with a lot of devices or a lot of it systems that initial identification. Needs to be conveyed to these different services.

And so this is one of the challenges of personalization is that because this centralized identity information is being shared with all these different services it's availability is critical and also the performance is critical. And what we found is that, with this personalization comes more and more demand for concurrency.

And and that's where we started looking to companies like Couchbase to be able to help us to scale out and utilize the cloud computing technologies more efficiently with a database and databases weren't necessarily designed for cloud. What do you

Amy: [00:09:11] mean by availability?

Guest: [00:09:13] So most con so consumer facing applications tend to be multi data center.

So if one data center goes down, you're not there. The service is not offline. Nobody wants to be like, see the Netflix TV spinning, like that's, going to be, you're going to be grumpy about that. Yeah. Or running into a situation where your front door is locked. It is, if that is the initial and ongoing interface between you and your customer, you've got to, always have a mechanism to allow the customer to get in. Otherwise, you're losing revenue. You're losing customer experience points with your customer, and the cloud has been great at this because where we have never, has it been so easy to do multi data center deployments?

Like when I started in the business in the nineties, it was all about quote unquote disaster recovery and building multiple data centers. And now you're just like let's use, Amazon and Google and Microsoft and red hat and IBM, they all have networks for us and we can just jump on them and get the, this type of business continuity.

Amy: [00:10:11] Yes. Actually I want to build off of that. Mike, when did you found glue found? Is that a word? Yes,

Guest: [00:10:19] that is a word. Gosh, it's been 12 years now. So we've started in 2009, which in a lot of ways was, it was at the end of an era, it was the beginning of the cloud era. And so it was. 12 years doesn't seem like a long time, but in terms of what's happened in the industry, it really is for sure.

And we started, I had been working in the business, probably for about 15 years before I started the company. And I just felt that wouldn't it be great if there was an open source digital identity platform? At the time that the business was dominated by Oracle and IBM and computer associates.

And I was like, why isn't there an open source? One of these everyone must want that. And so we started glue really to build an open source digital identity platform. And we've been, it was way harder than I thought to do it, but we're, and we're still at it, but yeah, that, that was the origin of it.

No.

Amy: [00:11:15] Yeah. It's, it is crazy. Like the security implications, the growth and the past 12 years of digital in general definitely a good industry for you to get in. I feel,

Guest: [00:11:27] yeah. So it's caused us to pivot because there's also been this huge migration to the cloud. And so I think all of our starting assumptions got challenged as with the emergence of cloud computing and cloud providing.

So it's been a lot of pivoting. But yeah, we ha we are really lucky in that. We're in a very fast growing industry, so yeah, we couldn't have asked for a more interesting dynamic market.

Amy: [00:11:51] Wait as a authentication company, how did cloud computing change your direction?

Guest: [00:11:59] So we started around the same time as Okta.

Or, as glue is our customers have always been more on the high end. Oh, customers who have economies of scale to host their own infrastructure. They have it departments, they have projects, and we've always catered to the really high-end type of use cases. But when we started in 2009, there was no Okta.

There was no auth CRO or Microsoft Azure ID. So these companies really changed the market a lot. Because now it's almost become the defacto where standard, where you'd say, oh, why am I going to host this complicated infrastructure? If Okta or auth zero can do it for me. And that had huge impact on the market.

So the software bent the self hosted software vendors in the market. All of us have trended to cater towards the high end and the whole middle market and SMB part of the market just evaporated.

Amy: [00:12:53] And so is what you do related then to like something as your where they. Are doing like to FFA or that kind of UI user authentication, like front door experience.

Okay.

Guest: [00:13:05] Yeah. So everyone's familiar with Google, right? So you've done, that's a glue. If you want it to host your own Google identity system, that's what glue does. So we walk, you present you with one or more login pages and then after you've authenticated we've we would. Issue tokens to, to other service providers.

Like for example, have you ever gone to a website and you hit Google login and it says this app, this website wants to see or calendar or something that's off working in the background. So that's the authorization that I'm talking about, where you have to, because Google needs Google. Doesn't know if you want to sh it should let this third-party update your calendar.

So the personalization, I think extends here. Here's what kind of, where it gets complicated. If you own everything, it's really straightforward. If Google doesn't have to ask me if they, if I can share my email with Gmail, like they own that. But if it's some third party they don't know and they have to ask you, and this is where we've seen a lot of change from, let's say the early days of the internet, where.

It's we have this system of interconnected services that are, that need our data. And that's created a lot more demand for this data and it's really nobody, I think 20 years ago would have match. It would have imagined like the scale of these systems and how many transactions per second, you need to actually process in order to meet the expectations of consumers.

What is the

Amy: [00:14:36] expectation.

Guest: [00:14:39] Everyone does expect that they know work. So that's the work and it has to work fast a billion authentications, just to give you an idea, a billion authentications per day was 60,000 transactions per second on Couchbase. Okay. These are hard numbers to achieve.

Yeah. And our disks, haven't gotten a lot faster. So in order to to really get this performance, we need software, the song, the hardware that you know, that we can't get the disc spindle to go any faster. So in order to really get this scale, we need to put more disks to work. And in order to do that, we need more, we need better software.

And at the same time, we also have to drive down operational complexity because if you need to train for a year to be a proficient at operating these highly complex multi data center clusters, then it's not your total costs of ownership goes way up and companies won't be able to do it. So this is another area where we felt Couchbase helps our customer deliver these systems at scale.

Amy: [00:15:39] Yeah. I can't imagine 60,000 transactions per second is hard to even fathom or a billion authentications is hard to even fathom, but okay, cool. And as far as like front building off of the front door experience, does the capture. Kind of experience I have anything to do with this too, where you have to select all of the traffic lights.

Guest: [00:16:04] That's well, so that's a way to tell if you're a human and not a hacker. So we have all these strategies for basically preventing fraud and mitigating risk. So biometric authentication testing. If you're a human looking at your IP address, I heard that Google looks at a hundred different things.

You only re you know, You do a couple of things, but in the background, they're looking at your session and they're doing all this fraud and risk analysis to see, is it really you? And do they need to do take extra steps to mitigate that risk? So that's part of the authentication. What we call it.

Penetration is a gluey called the authentication workflow because that workflow is often multiple steps and then adjust based upon the risk. So it's called adaptive authentication.

Amy: [00:16:51] So you're telling me it doesn't actually matter whether I select that photo with the tiny little piece of traffic light in it or not.

Guest: [00:17:00] No, that's just one piece of data that they're using to tell. They're probably not going to let

you

Guest: [00:17:06] pursue

Amy: [00:17:06] that. It's not the be all end all. They're not going to be like, oh, she's a robot. Didn't get that one. It

Guest: [00:17:13] helps. It helps. It helps mitigate like probably sums a whole set of risks. Cause if we can let computers impersonate humans, then they can do it much more quickly.

I bet you it does. Our customers ask for, and we do it. And there's a lot of theories. I always say that I wish people spend more time actually improving authentication technology and less time. Detecting intrusions. Cause wouldn't it be better to prevent the hacker from getting in the first place then in detecting that he's there versus there.

But but I frequently wonder why, because 80% of the breaches, the root cause is is failure to properly identify the person. And so this is the vast majority as a result of bad authentication. Shouldn't we invest more there. But it seems like a disproportionate part of the investment in security is in other places.

I always wonder why that is Mike,

what

Amy: [00:18:08] do you think about the AI kind of way that we're going trend that we're going into, where they can tell based on user behavior, whether that user is the correct user or not? You know what I mean? Keystroke monitoring and like the behavior that they do, a quote unquote, regular behavior when they collect all that data.

What do you think about that?

Guest: [00:18:33] I like that kind of technology, because it doesn't impact the user experience. Although some of it is really more fraud detection, not actually authentication when you're asserting, I am Amy cause I know the password or I have a presented my biometric.

A lot of times what. What you're talking about is happening after authentication monitor. Yeah. Yeah. So for example, you call your bank and you authenticate, but then you continue to interact with your bank and then they detect through voice that your voice is not consistent with a past pattern.

And that might throw off an alert. But it's actually. So it is it authentication or fraud detection. But in general, I like that kind of thing. Cause it doesn't necessarily impact the user

Amy: [00:19:17] experience. But let's say that there was a stolen end point and they had a sticky note with the password on there.

Theoretically they could. Go get past the authentication. And then at that point, this new kind of software would let you know that user is not the user. That's how it goes in my mind anyway.

Guest: [00:19:35] Yeah. I think that's true. And then based on whatever other perhaps behaviors or location information, where does that end point device go?

Does it go somewhere brand new? Those kinds of things are also inputs to the fraud detection. Yeah. Algorithms, we didn't, fraud detection is another major, a use case for Couchbase in that. Yeah. Gathering that data and then making sure you do the pattern recognition on whether or not that.

The device itself that you're watching is now in a brand new location that you've never ever seen before. And it's it doesn't fit any other type of pattern that the user has established in the past. That kind of information is what feeds the fraud detectors. And then if you started using the pin, the transaction payment mechanism on it that's where the, the.

The good user experience comes in that, oh, that transaction doesn't look right. We're going to freeze it. Which is what your banks are likely to do. But it's all, in many cases it's the same fraud detector that's out there, keeping watch over all of this.

Amy: [00:20:38] And Jeff, I would like to chat about, the future of authentication and the front door experience overall. What are your thoughts as the solutions marketing person at Couchbase for trends of in this area? Or where do you see this kind of technology going

Guest: [00:20:58] well? So what was interesting is last year triggered.

A lot of brand new behaviors in all of us. So yeah, when, when w the way we saw everything was for an it organization, two things happen. One of two things happen to them. And in many cases, both one was when your users disappeared from where they used to be in congregate. They all went online.

And then they created that concurrency problem that Mike was talking about. They're hitting your system, whether it's your first authentication or the activities that they're doing afterwards, they're hitting that so frequently that they run into ex experienced problems. The, your system's too slow.

It's not able to serve me what I want right now. And there's a likelihood that because the user is not accustomed to doing that all the time, that their frustration level is gonna, go through the roof really quickly. So you get a dissatisfied user just because they've tried your online experience.

So that's one driver of man, we got to change this, right? The other driver is the opposite. It's the reaction to where'd everybody go. And you have to change font or add functionality or do something different to actually pivot so that you can indeed chase down your customers, your users, to all of these new locations that they happen to be.

And there's perhaps a likelihood there that you're a legacy system that you're, you've been depending on for five or 10 years. It doesn't have that flexibility built into it. So your ability to, to, move the iceberg is really difficult. When, you want to be as nimble as possible right now, because back in August or, a year ago, from now, or, or you go past right, there was this like reaction of you really either where'd everybody go or, oh my gosh, I'm overwhelmed.

Like it's black Friday. You had. Either of those situations happening. So what, so those are now the new rules of the game. You need to have flexibility. You need to have availability as Mike was talking about a minute ago, but then imagine project where these things are gonna happen and how we've been talking about them.

Yeah. They created these, the need for these new smart kind of environments. And once the other thing going on right now is the deployment of 5g networks everywhere. Which as by design, they're supposed to give you this incredibly fast network in small locations, in, in specific like mesh environments.

So when I, the cruise ship is a great one because I've got a customer that does that, but there's also your hotel and also, your grocery store or the, the big box store or the restaurant you're in. Pretty much wherever, any sets of people congregate. And, or are going to re congregate as, as the road opens up again, on an airplane, in a transit center, on a bus, right?

All of these things are going to turn into these smart environments. Because, the user expectation of okay, now I know I'm online and I can do all these things. That's very high. But then the ability to create a better experience because of that, they know where you are, they know you're on your commute.

They know, that you're probably listening to an audio book. But you can come up with ways in which to, you know, Deliver that again, that experience really effectively and seamlessly as long as they know who you are and, and can back match it to pass patterns of behavior or, things, information that they've collected in the, in the past and do so in a trustworthy way, but it's these smart environments they're going to be everywhere.

You're you know and this is what, even the second generation evolution of. Your smart home, right? That they've, they're they're warning us about right now all over the web of Amazon sidewalk is a new mesh networking mechanism. That's going to integrate they take advantage of the fact that.

The nest or the echo that I have in my house probably can still talk to my neighbor's nest ecosystem and their house and the, the little key fob a tracker on the dog, you on the neighborhood dog, as it goes by my house, I can tell it just went by here and then it's suppose five. And then my neighbor's house, it went by over there and the owner of the dog can look up and go, where's my dog, right?

That's a better user experience, but that's also part of this evolution of these kinds of smart environments. That's going to, going to keep happening.

Amy: [00:24:58] And where do you see this going with the notion that I'd be terrified if a technology could track where my dog was. You know what I mean? And like the D like the age of decentralization and caring about your digital persona and your privacy, how can we combat that with the rise or how can they both rise at the same time, extreme personalization and the privacy

issues?

Guest: [00:25:26] There's a, and I think Mike can play off this too, is it's it, there ultimately will be always the case where we can point back to you opted into this in some form or form and therefore opt out of it in some form. The opting out Google tracks my location information on my phone for only three months.

That's actually the, the degree to which they they allow you to say, stop tracking me. And it's, don't keep that history that far back but I expect that, that's going to be the case with this data, Amazon sidewalk thing.

They're telling you, turn your, turn off these features on your echo. If you want to opt out of it, you don't want your network bandwidth to be consumed, but with, their their devices and, the convenience they're offering to somebody, that's not, you.

So you, there's going to be an increased balance in that opt in opt out thing. And that's going to take place not only at the micro level, of like me inside of my house, but also at the macro level of me living in California or me living in Germany where, data, residency requirement laws have also popped up, so that.

A, the resident server of my profile, who's going to live closer to me then, then rest and Virginia, I'm in California. So it's going to be, it'll start to be things like that, where the degree of control that I, I'm ultimately allotted is going to need to go up.

So you can, ultimately determine how much opt-in stuff you do and you don't do .

Amy: [00:26:47] Yeah, Mike, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the rise of the need for security and privacy security and the direction that authentication is going to go into address it.

Guest: [00:26:58] Like I said before, I'm on the tool side and the glue server, and this is more I think you have to separate the personal and the business here on the personal side.

I'm not paranoid about my data. I have a lot of apps running on my phone, but I try to minimize them. So I think there's a range of how people feel about how much they want to share. And I'm more. Like I won't have an Amazon echo in my house, for example. But but I am not a, I won't not use social networks either.

I'm on, on Instagram too. So I'm somewhere in the middle and at a business level know it's interesting because the glue server. Can be used to help companies implement systems that give people control of their privacy by enabling them to consent into services. And so glue is very supportive of this type of use case.

But we also have the opposite use case ethically where we want to achieve maximum accountability. For example, in a department of defense application, we want to know, did this person log in at this time and do this thing. So we have an audit trail. So you can say that type of application of the glue server is privacy degrading.

Cause we don't want privacy there. We want the opposite of privacy. We want account complete accountability. So on the technology side, I would say we've designed the glue server to let you choose what degree of privacy you want to offer and to have implement features that enable companies to give users more control.

This is, there's also a philosophical or ethical question. Let's say that I don't think I'm qualified to answer about the direction our society is going with regard to how we protect that privacy and and how companies have exploited it. There's a very good documentary called the social dilemma, which I recommend.

And I think that does a pretty good job in, in two hours of exploring like some of the edges of that conversation and which is definitely, I think, as a society, I think it's going to take us a long time, the rules follow the tools by by this considerable delay. And I'm I'm not sure that this will be solved in my career trajectory.

I'm 51, so maybe I have another 15 years or so. I think that these things might take longer to sort out than people think. And that in the meantime, we might find ourselves in a situation where companies are exploiting this opportunity where we're in the wild west of data aggregation.

I don't know, yeah,

Amy: [00:29:31] I'm in a similar boat to you in terms of caring about my data, privacy. Like I don't have an echo, but I use social media. I actually, I might take it even one step further than you because I let Google see all of my location data. I let them track it.

And that bot that is because I listened to this podcast, which I highly recommend it's called to live and die in LA. And it is like a murder mystery podcast where the woman. Who died was found because she had her Google location data turned on. So I was like, okay, solve my murder. That's fine.

Track my data, send it to you. Third-party companies, whatever

Guest: [00:30:09] cool. But that's exactly the, the opt-in kind of cases where that value far outweighs the, what my ongoing thought of my value of knowing where I am right now or where I was last week very true.

And yeah, in some cases there are very valid situations. Like that one. Yeah.

Amy: [00:30:28] I'm more afraid of my body never being found than Google having my

Guest: [00:30:32] data. I have a friend who says if they take our Google away, there'll be a revolution. If they try and, once you have these platforms and this level of convenience and then you contemplate, life without, Google maps or something or ways that actually, if you took them away, people would be where they might actually revolt.

Amy: [00:30:50] no, I would not. I would not survive without Google maps. Hi. I'm like I'm speechless.

Guest: [00:30:57] I think we all agree on that, right? Yeah. The what we're finding right now as everything evolves is that it's, that not only is the, how am I going to get from here to 20 miles away, but the, the granularity of your location information is going to keep getting more and more valuable.

So my phone, knowing that I'm in my office rather than my living room, is, could be the difference between what shows up on my television here, what shows up on my television upstairs that kind of thing, or recognizing that it's my, the kids upstairs and not, not an adult kind of thing.

So it might scope down what's available upstairs versus what's not. Yeah the that location, the value of location data is variable very high and yeah, rich print on that value of location. Data is also very high. So that's the thing we ended up I think giving up on the value of my health data right, is also super, super high.

And, not something that I really want, every application on my phone.

Amy: [00:31:58] Yeah, for sure. I actually, I think that Google, like location data and GPS technology might have to get a little better to tell if you're in your living room versus your office. And I think the Google. S location technology is accurate down within a city block.

So it's still a little bit like sometimes not as good. No, it's

Guest: [00:32:19] better than that. Your Uber picks you up at the address and it maps you at the exact address. It's within a couple of feet. If you're outside, I think if they have the GPS it's a couple of feet. If you're in a big into interior, then they're using the wifi triangulation.

It's not as accurate. Yeah. But the fact that they've figured out that they need to do both is pretty impressive.

Amy: [00:32:44] Yeah. All right. Great. Thank you, Jeff and Mike for joining me on this episode of the hacker noon podcast, Jeff, if we want to find you and what you're working on at Couchbase, where can we look?

Guest: [00:32:56] You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Jeff Morris, one word three at at LinkedIn. You can find me also [email protected] and we're working on we're about to roll out version seven of the database itself. It adds in, great stuff like, distributed transactions everywhere so that we can support the buyer, buy the service or, update the the records across the board or, help help Mike systems, make sure that they know what the current IP address of the front, of the phone is thing.

Got it, got that capability going in, but yeah, lots of good stuff going on a cash basis.

Amy: [00:33:29] Amazing. And Mike, where can we find you and glue?

Guest: [00:33:33] Glue.org is probably the best way to contact me. And you could also find me on LinkedIn. Of course, I'm N Y N Y. Mike knew New York. I'm originally a new Yorker.

I'm still a Yankees fan. And if you're, if you want to see my vacation pictures and those have be on Instagram, as I mentioned, but from my work stuff, glue.org is the company website. And I should also put in a quick plug from my podcast. I have a business podcast called open source underdogs, open source, underdogs.com, where I interview the founders of open source companies, the founders and CEOs.

And we've been doing that for a couple of years. And so I'm also, you can find contact me from there. Great.

Amy: [00:34:15] All right. Thank you very much, everybody. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks,

Guest: [00:34:19] bye.

Amy: [00:34:20] If you liked this episode of the hacker noon podcast, don't forget to subscribe and like our channels. You can find us at hacker noon on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, and as always stay fresh, happy internetting.

I will see you later on goodbye.